Zoomers & Boomers are the same

Computers have been dumbed down and simplified for the masses. When I was a kid a computer did not cooperate until you raised your voice.

I do industrial programming. Everything is so far behind that yelling at the "computers" does nothing. Physical violence is just about the only thing they respect.
- Percussive maintenance is surprisingly helpful a lot of the time.
- That's where the term punch card comes from
- I would love to have more effective means to threaten inanimate objects.
- Tbh, that sounds super interesting.
Hello, COMPUTER!!!
- SLAMS DESK HELLO!
- Use the mouse, duh.
Yeah, newer generations have been raised on tech that “just worked” consistently. They never had to do any deep troubleshooting, because they never encountered any major issues. They grew up in a world where the hard problems were already figured out, so they were insulated from a lot of the issues that allowed millennials to learn.
They never got a BSOD from a faulty USB driver. They never had to reinstall an OS after using Limewire to download “Linkin_Park-Numb.mp3.exe” on the family computer. Or hell, even if they did get tricked by a malicious download, the computer’s anti-virus automatically killed it before they were even able to open it. They never had to manually install OS updates. They never had to figure out how to get their sound card working with a new game. They never had to manually configure their network settings.
All of these things were chances for millennials to learn. But since the younger generations never encountered any issues, they never had to figure their own shit out.
- Or reinstall the OS on the family computer because one of your dumbass siblings downloaded a sUpeR cOoL song from one of their friends on MSN Messenger.
- It's not so much that the tech just worked. Often it doesn't work. The difference is that when it doesn't work it's not user-serviceable. Up until maybe 2010 or so, when things broke there was often something a user could do to fix them. But, especially with the introduction of locked-down mobile phone OSes, that's not true anymore. Now it's just "wait for an update".
- And that is why I'll only allow my kids to use Linux!
It was always a struggle to get the damn thing to do what you wanted it to. It turned out to be a good thing long term.
- Even as a teenager (didn't have a computer before that) I had infinite patience with computers, you can fix/change/make anything with enough time, nothing will be better if you get mad and ignore reading and making sure you understand what's happening. Seeing how young people handle tech now is fucking depressing, they just click past everything without reading, get mad and rage quit after 30 seconds of something not working and think anything that's more than two clicks/taps is too complicated.
we really need frutiger aero back man
And when that wasn't enough, the fists came out.
I'm sure you meant "beat it into submission".

I can:

Accomplish damn near anything from a command line
Write machine code
Remember a fairly broad swath of special character altcodes without looking them up
Disassemble damn near any computer or other machine, and stand a good chance of putting it back together

But also:

Use modern programming languages, including object oriented paradigms
Actually read what is on my screen and comprehend it, including error messages
Understand and operate any arbitrary interface without having to have it explained to me by rote

Behold my mixture of skills, and tremble.

Can you summarize this in a vertical video? I stopped reading after the third word, I'm here for memes, not to read a damned book!
- This is spot on!
  EDIT: This was spot on. TL;DR below.
  I stopped reading after the third word, I’m here for memes, not to read a damned book!
- ... and have a dance video playing with music and flashing lights with the text over it ... but not too much text because I can't read that well
- "I can: Accomplish" kind of sums it up though
They're a witch speaking in tongues! Burn them!
- You just made me realize the Zoomers are actually much closer to making Warhammer 40k a reality. IT engineers are like Tech Priests to these Zoomers.
"Do not cite the Deep Magic to me, Witch! I was there when it was written"
Okay but can you rotate a pdf?
- Depends, my browser has mostly taken over as my pdf viewer and I think it lacks the functionality but if I were to install a cracked copy of Acrobat Pro or PhantomPDF then that's like a 2 click operation.
I can
reinstall VLC
oh wait that was all the dependencies VLC needed, I deleted them??, oh no, oh crap. Why isn't my password working, help???
(real reason why my first Ubuntu distro got nuked)
- I once wanted to move all the files in the folder was I in to another folder and I did something like mv /* ../. What is important here is that I did /* and not ./*. Fortunately it was only a raspberry pi so it went fast to flash the SD card.
  Also, how did you go about reinstalling VLC if you deleted all dependencies?
I'd argue at a certain depth in an OS its actually harder to do things with a GUI than a command line
The day I started learning Regex was the day I felt like I was really learning computers. I went from 2 hour tasks to 15 minutes.
I doubt you’d even be able to reasonably explain what they are let alone how they work to the average person outside the Millennial generation.
I fear AI data processing will replace much of the Regex skill set. Why learn Regex when the computer just does it for you… 🙄
- I agree that regex is an important thing to learn. Not sure any old LLM would do a very good job, and I hope that no tool replaces people actually learning how to write regex.
  I'm not sure what you mean about the average person outside the millennial generation not understanding them, though. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think the 'average' person in any generation knows what regex is. Unless there is some reason the average millennial was actually exposed to them and forced to understand them?
  As for being doubtful that anyone could understand them aside from a millennial, I assume you're being hyperbolic? Sort of sounds like "Kids these days can never learn what I learned!" (I'm teasing).
  Anyway I'm in agreement with you. This thread did remind me of a pretty neat project that, while still requiring domain knowledge, could save some time and be a good learning tool without being as fallible of a crutch as an LLM.
  Have not tried it, and am not an experienced developer, so I am curious to your thoughts/criticisms: https://github.com/pemistahl/grex
- Silly millennial, even Boomers were using regexen in the 70s, and they were commonplace by the time GenX nerds started playing with them in the 80s and 90s. Your elders also know that regexen are fun but extremely dangerous, and should only be used in cases where they won't make things much worse.
Why would you write machine code outside of uni! Assembly exists for a reason?
- Assembly is just machine code in a dress.
... modern ... Object oriented
wat?
Bro that shits like 30 years old and most langs released after lets say 2010 have put that stuff in the backseat for backwards compatibility. Anyway I get your point
operate any arbitrary interface
Dont believe it. Behold the shittyness of modern UI
Understand and operate any arbitrary interface without having to have it explained to me by rote
Omg, this all the way. I'm in a class for learning AWS stuff and its crazy the amount of people who suddenly can't do anything when one button is on a different screen than the instructions told them it was. Like come on, use some basic thinking skills.
Another infuriating situation was having to do a class on Microsoft Office. It was infuriating because it was incredibly basic stuff. I've never used Outlook before, but I completed each task they asked of me in like 5 seconds because I have a basic understanding of how software works.
I bow down to thee. Please don't smite me o' holy one.
Bobby no one’s paying you for this shit, go show Billy how to sum numbers in Excel.
Write machine code? For what kind of processor?
That is one ability that doesn't really belong. That's much more of a Boomer thing. Not all boomers, obviously, but the ones who were computer experts were the ones who had to learn machine code. By the time even Gen X came along, assembler and C were already much more common.
Yeah but can you rotate a pdf?
- To any angle you want.
Remember a fairly broad swath of special character altcodes
I use the compose key. When you message with me, you are sure to receive proper dashes and real ellipsis.
Well, unless I happen to be using my phone or another computer at the time.
- Hold on — why can't you do proper ellipses and dashes on your phone? I don't understand…
  This message brought to you by Android.

Let me guess: they're talking about Millennials, and are entirely forgetting about Gen X once again.

Hahaha its funny each time that happens.
My uncle is GenX and way smarter than my millennial ass. They paved the way for child free poppin off and being tech savvy with a normal tech free upbringing.
Anecdotal I know. But always funny how self centered us millenials can be thinking were the last normal generation.
I figured they were talking about the Oregon Trail generation. It's made up of the folks who were old enough and young enough to play the game in schools and spans across parts of X and millennials.
- That's a great way to describe our larger cohort! I'm going to use that. I've got so many friends across the Gen-X to Millenial range that all feel like members of the same generation.
For once they didn't forget gen X-- I think OP is about xennials
https://web.archive.org/web/20150423212047/http://socialmediaweek.org/blog/2015/04/oregon-trail-generation/
I heard millennials can't even grow a proper long beard
- Yea but our mustache game is unmatched by anyone pre-1920's.
- Punk kids can't even manage enough of an attention span to grow a Gentoo long beard!
- Please don't attack like this... Ma kokoro, ma sole.
Probably. But if I’m being generous, we’re really only talking about younger X and older millennials.
- This always surprises me as I'm younger millennial and my Gen X dad always feels more technologically behind than me.
  But it's funny because I'm only so into computers because of him as he had things like Windows 3.1 and 95 and 98 in our home from a young age and he even went to school for C++ but he doesn't really remember it (it got him an accounting gig) and his pursual of technology these days is pretty limited to pre-built stuff from Samsung and Sony than any real grasp of how it works. I struggle to get him to show even passing interest in something like Linux (like, I get liking Windows; you grew up with it: you're more comfortable with it. But not even curiosity, even if you'll never use it?).
  Expert on Excel and OneNote (because it's his daily bread-and-butter) but probably would ask for my help on rotating a PDF.
  What OP describes sounds much more aligned to my millennial peers than the bulk of Gen. X I know.
Honestly? Why do we let people who have no clue what's actually going on decide the generations?
Oregon Trail generation sounds great.
I'm in the Minecraft generation.
Don't know what the next generation would want to be called, but they're the iPad kids for sure.
Yup!
Gen X could write a program that'll make a floppy drive's loading noises play the Imperial March.
- https://youtu.be/yHJOz_y9rZE
Or those of us from Gen Z that where born just at the cutoff and got tech acces at a way to young age.
- *were *access *too
  Yup, you're a Zoomer alright.
- The generation that used them to create the new generation of smart devices? Sure.
- The generation that grew up with ZX Spectrum, C64, Amiga etc knows how to use computers.
- Some can't. Computers weren't commonplace until many GenXers were in their 20s, so some never learned. Those that did learn often learned the deep magic.

in today’s edition of "why are the kids I raised so damn incompetent?"

i long for a day where people understand that it’s not the ipad kid’s fault they were given a tablet at age 2

The amount of my students that wrote the whole email in the subject line is crazy. At first I thought it was a mistake or something. But there are sooo many...

They also don't know what a file browser/explorer is. As soon as the download notification is gone, the file doesn't exist anymore.

Giving files proper names? Unheard of!

So many Boomers I know do the subject line thing, I had no idea it was a Zoomer thing too. Oh no…
- I often leave the subject line blank, is that better or worse?

Giving files proper names? Unheard of!
What kinda monster manages to live like this??? I say hushedly deleting flsjfjsjfksj.pdf

I have a coworker who named a file template after the person they were sending the file to. I cannot follow the logic.
As soon as the download notification is gone, the file doesn't exist anymore.
That seems to be how Android literally works though.
- If you get an actual file explorer it's fine. I'm using a fossilized asus one because I got used to it years ago.
- Yeah; I hate Android's file navigation capabilities…

I think Zoomers need a generational divide in their generation, tbh. In my experience, older Zoomers are intelligent, capable, motivated, and largely leftist. For some unknown reason though, younger Zoomers are ignorant, prudish, too easily contented, and weirdly conservative. I have yet to understand what happened to cause the divide, and I can't point to any stats or evidence to support this belief, but anecdotally I have noticed this trend within my own life and spheres of influence.

Are they the same generation whose parents said “they’re really good with computers …they go on the iPad all the time”?

WhAt'S a CoMpUtEr?
- Thanks for reminding me, now I'm angry.
- If only we knew at the time how prophetic that damn commercial would be...
- An IPad is a computer with a touchscreen interface instead of mouse and keyboard

We got a new kid around 19 working at our office for processing data and I hate how true this is. The amount of times I've had to say "No, you have to double click to open folders" is entirely too many. Either that or "You have to actually right click on the icon you want to copy you can't just click anywhere on the screen."

Fuck me I'm not ready for that. You expect it from the old people but I might have to leave the room if a young person asked me something like that.
- I teach undergrads, and every year basic computer skills get worse and worse. I guess it’s not entirely their fault, but things like just asking them to save a file to their computer is insanely difficult. Lots of universities are starting to get task forces to figure out how to teach (or where to teach rather) basic digital skills, it it’s all going to hit the workforce really soon en masse.
- In high school I had to teach a kid how a mouse worked.
- I mean, I know millennials who don't own a computer. Just phones. They got young kids. Not sure if those are alpha at this point or whatever, but how are they supposed to learn it if they got nowhere to practice?
  Quite a few working class kids and teens grow up like this.
You know, I can forgive tech illiteracy. I don't like it, but I can forgive it. What I can't forgive is a basic inability to retain new information.
You gotta teach someone to double click on something to open it? Fine. But you should only have to do that once.
The amount of times I've had to say "No, you have to double click to open folders"
That's a real problem when you're used to Kde and have to use a windows machine.
(Why is this damn thing so slow ? Oooh, right, double click)
- You can absolutely configure Windows to open folders -- and all other shortcuts -- with a single click, and IIRC one of the knocks against Windows ME was that this was the default option. And it was godawful, along with the "click" noise it made on navigation. (I think it was WinME. I've probably suppressed the memory, and rightly so.)
  But the long and short of it is if you want consistency between your UI's in that regard you can indeed have it.
- I use KDE Neon and have used Kubuntu before. Double click to open a folder is the default, same as Windows.
We are getting this teached in 6th grade what country is this from? Edit: Įn 8th rudementary python.
- You get one guess.

It only relatively recently occurred to me that the vast majority of people use the Internet either solely or mostly with a mobile phone. It blew my mind since I grew up with PCs and modems and the Internet is so much better on a large screen that's not half full of ads.

Yeah, I hate using the internet via a phone and only do it when there's no other option available. It severely limits what you can do, which of course is perfect for the 5 or so corporations that run most of the internet.
My wife is similarly aged than me. I was raised around computers and she was not. It's a chore to get her to actually send me a URL or tell me where she is so I can actually get a full browser experience. I've slowly been converting her over and trying to show her the benefits of browsing online.
It doesn't have to be full of ads on mobile either, just use Firefox or a fork (ironfox is great) and add ublock origin as a start.
- This is true for Android, but sadly not so for iOS. All browsers on iOS use Safari’s engine WebKit under the hood, yet only Safari can have extensions. There is no uBlock on Safari, either. We have alternatives though, like AdBlock Pro and similar

Me: Behold!

*quickly presses Control+V

Classmate: Woah! How did you do that??!!!

True story but as a millennial teaching another millennial in college.

this is less a problem of 'people are stupid' and more 'educational institutions have been dismantled over the last several decades and large numbers of people are pushed through school despite being functionally illiterate, if they graduate at all'

It’s not just dismantling of education. It’s the corporate creep into the education system from companies like Microsoft, Google and Apple. They want people get locked into their systems. So they start them young. Instead of learning basic os agnostic computer skills, kids at school are locked into cloud dependent apps.
- I think if they were using windows they'd be far more computer literate, but they're just using iPad and chromebooks
- The companies started it in the 1980s.
  The sick sad history of computer-aided collaboration:
  https://www.quora.com/Who-invented-the-modern-computer-look-and-feel/answer/Harri-K-Hiltunen
Hey, I was never taught how to rotate a PDF.
I just looked for the button in the viewer.
Sometimes, I just rotate the screen instead.
No it's just that Zoomers only use touchscreen, which are vastly simplified devices compared to a desktop computer
Personally I'd blame parents more than the schools, especially in America. Parent involvement is nearing all-time lows and it seems a lot of them are expecting all learning to be done outside the home. I learned more about computers from my dad than any class or teacher.
- one of the major benefits of going to school is you can learn stuff your parents don't know or can't teach.
  In your country, when you were a child, how many parents out of 1000 knew more than a computer teacher about computing?
  You are advocating for a world where only the children of the educated can become educated.

You can rotate a PDF in your mind. It's free entertainment and nobody can stop you

Aphantasia can stop you.
- Lol, right? I can't even imagine the PDF in my mind, much less rotate it
  Thank god I at least can rotate it using a computer or I'd be stuck
Do not try to rotate the PDF, that's impossible. Instead, only try to know the truth.
- There is no PDF?
Dude thanks for that tip…I’m watching hundreds of thousands of pdfs spinning in my mind… this is so entertaining.
For now

My daughter (5) uses WASD proficiently, so I have hope.

OK so I have a pet theory about this. I grew up in a period when computing involved friction and lack of ready resources to ease that friction. Solving problems involved actual research, in the research process more and more details of how computers operate were exposed to me. I had the time and focus to learn and the motivation to stick at it when it was difficult. I then did something horrible to almost everyone who asked me for help, I removed that friction.

With the noblest of intentions I prevented everyone around me from experiencing that friction, I made it easy. Consequently I caused those people around me to miss out on those basics I struggled with. I uncovered the arcane lore of endianess so everyone around me who wasn't already an adept would be spared. I plumbed the mysteries of the parallel port so that others could use a printer with only mild mystical invocations. I immersed myself in SCSI termination so that my friends and family might partake of IDE (retroactively named PATA) in peace.

I came from an era of computing where these things mattered (at least to some degree) and they moulded me and shaped how I use a computer to this day. My brothers will always be dependent on myself and my ilk to act as guides and so much of what I know is functionally useless today so a neophyte could not follow the twisted path I did.

I was blessed as well to come of age in a time when a computer was a comprehensible assemblage of parts, when I could identify at an IC level the components of it. I feel like that is what is missing in the modern incarnation of technology. I also worry this is where we stagnate, the field is too large for anyone to compass it entirely and we splinter in to specialisations.

However this is also a sign that technology has come of age. I am certain, absolutely positive, that if I was to pick an arbitary topic, say music, I would seem as illiterate and helpless as the Zoomers we are bemoaning as mere consumers of Tech. I can enjoy a piece of music, I can even take a rough stab at the rusiments of how it is made. Ask me to explain the nomenclature of a time signature on sheet music and I will look the dunce before I finish the first sentence.

So maybe we should give them a break and realise that for a lot of them, It... Just... Isn't... Important...

They will learn this stuff if and when they need to. Otherwise "magic box does things when I perform this ritual" is enough for them to function in their world, the same as "Car starts when I turn this key" is enough for me to function in mine.

Holy crap, I wrote this on my phone, what is wrong with me?

Fun read, but the zinger of "it.... Just.... Isn't.... Important" really damages your argument.
The difference in knowing how our technological systems work versus just using them is how you wind up in a world where capitalist rule, intelligence dwindles and choice is stolen. We're seeing these effects in real time. And it's just not technology; take the electoral system here in the US. It stopped being about the functions of our government and became flag waving and baby kissing. Now our tax dollars kill children, the rich are all but unstoppable and we're at each other's throats all because we, collectively, let the systems work without understanding how and why.
Tech today being a glass and aluminum block feeds our lust, insecurity, inequality, comparison etc all in an effort to generate wealth and further divide, all by design. Didn't you think it's very important to know that?
- As a zoomer (17) I kind of agree but I really don't think its that deep although big tech does seem to profit off people's incompetence. Yes kids my age know very little about the computers they use. Hell most kids don't even seem to know where their files are or how file paths work. I recently in Comp Sci class had a kid look at me confused when I mentioned the folder he was looking for was in his home directory. The dumbing down of Tech is definitely a culprit. Not always even in ways that the tech easier to use. Finder on MacOS outright hides things from you on purpose like file paths and being able to access arbitrary folder on your system. There are a considerable amount of features locked away in the settings menu where the vast majority of people will never even look. I highly think all of this is malicious as it severely degrades user experience and sets them to fail in the long run. Don't even get me started on the whole random files will end up in ICloud/Onedrive and there is nothing you can do about it.
- I am not arguing in any way that there should be some basic competence required of everyone who uses tech, in the same way that despite my aversion to cars I know how to change a tyre, check and top up my oil, feel the windshield wiper resevoir and check the radiator level. It is incumbent on me to have that knowledge as a foundational level of being a driver and car owner, and yes I am aware that there are a number of drivers who do not know these things, but that is another discussion.
  I think that far, far more important than all this is teaching critical thinking, media literacy and scepticism. A grade 11 & 12 (I'm Australian so not sure how closely that maps but 17-19 year olds) health teacher I was talking to recently told me that more than 80% of her students admit to recieving the vast majority or all of their health information from TikTok. It genuinely does not matter if they understand the finer points of say file system structure, if they are uncritically listening to a shitty AI voice over a video of three people doing a synchronised "dance" telling them that oranges cause shin splints.
  If our society, not just a segment of it, was taught to understand what media is, how it interacts with culture, and how rich people use it to establish and maintain control. That control from a ruling elite via newspapers, or TV, or the Internet is IMHO far more responsible than anything else for the state of your country... And my country... And the world. With that in mind I put my effort into trying to get my kids to research things for themselves and to look for the hidden motivations behind the facade of everything they do.
Nah, no breaks. Their ignorance is the foundation upon which further learning will stumble.
Is it their fault? No. But neither has it been Millennials' fault for inheriting a vast slew of fuckery dropped at our feet since the late 90s.
Baby Boomers ARE the culprits in most cases, but they'll never accept their roles in destroying the greatest and broadest reaching wealth engine in the modern world.
- I guess what I was trying to say with my rambling 1am slightly drunken screed, is that all of us swim in a sea of ignorance. I sure as hell do, I know little to nothing about mining, a lot of farming practices are completely unknown to me and the logistics used to coordinate the delivery of healthcare at a national level are frankly mind boggling (I live in a country with a somewhat functional healthcare system, ignore this example if you live in the US).
  The biggest thing, IMHO, that seperates me from a lot of the younger (and older) people I meet and interact with, is that I am happy to say "I don't know." And if it's important I can and will go and find out how it works, at least well enough to approach the cliffs of competency and decide if it's worth the effort to scale them.
  I cannot tell you how many topics I have learnt enough about to decide to eat the steak and declare that "Ignorance is bliss." Thankfully I haven't had to do so while betraying my colleagues to the agents yet.
“magic box does things when I perform this ritual”
Sounds like humanity's understanding of tech in Warhammer 40k.
- Maybe the writers at Games Workshop pulled a bit of prescience out when they did their exercise in hyperbolic projection of trends across 38,000 years.
  Or maybe it was influence of the warp and Tzeentch...

Boomer don't know how to do shit 'cause computers were so rare. Zoomers don't know how to do shit 'cause big companies profit from people who can't help themselves and have low standards.

There was only a small timeframe where computers were available, accessible yet not enshittificated for profit like today.

Expectation: these new generations are practically born with computers in their hands when they grow up they are going to create a new world so fast and develop new technologies

Reality: if tik tok doenst work they don’t know what else to do with their 1000+ euro smartphones

We're dumbing everything down. When I was a kid Imade my own tower defense game inside warcraft3 world editor, with custom models and everything. Everything was moddable, customisable. Now everything exists in walled gardens where you can't even switch anything
- It's like the classic essay, "Why Jonny Can't Code".
  I remember entering program listings from computer magazines into the Vic 20 as a kid, then modding them to make new things. But still, it was a minority of kids who had a computer back then, and even most of them (and myself most of the time) would just play games rather than write games.
  The difference now is that everyone has a cell phone, but it's still only a small minority that care.
Another meaningless mention of tiktok. Is tiktok making android and ios? Does it make impossible for users to install OS of their choice on their phones?
https://youtu.be/HUEvRyemKSg
- Replying to you here from a Google Pixel running Graphene OS here for no particular reason

There are TWO generations between Boomers and Zoomers.

It's funny how Bs and Zs kind of horseshoe into being ignorant about how computers work. Boomers never had them growing up, while Zoomers were born with phones in their hands using corporate apps and never learned how computers actually work. Those of us in between had to learn how they worked to use them.

Like birds and New Zealand, gen x doesn’t exist online.
- It's easy to forget us because we'll just say "whatever" when you do.
I mean, I know millennials who don't own a computer. Just phones. They got young kids. Not sure if those are alpha at this point or whatever, but how are they supposed to learn it if they got nowhere to practice?
Quite a few working class kids and teens grow up like this.

It'll depend on their hobbies. PC gamers will know this stuff, or at least how to figure it out.

As a boomer, reading this thread/discussion has been so amusing in many ways while enjoying my cuppa tea this morning. A classic "the younger generations are stupid."

The older generations looking down the ones that follow. And the following generations looking down on those that precede them. And no one understanding ain't none of us are all that bright.

Ever has it been, and so ever shall it be.

- that's not what that means. not even close.
ain't none of us are all that bright.
If I ever get a bumper sticker, to announce my views to the world - you've given me the words for it. Thank you.
A classic “the younger generations are stupid.”
There is some of that, but ultimately I know that it really isn't Zoomers' fault. They were never taught how to properly use a computer, a responsibility that should have been done by their Gen X/Millennial parents.
And of course there are many that do. This is just dealing in generalities.

We grew up in an analog childhood, but digital adulthood.

We've been at the cusp of all the changes, we probably had to boot into Ms DOS and navigate to the A:// drive to play whatever was on the floppy disk with a whopping 1.44mb.

Now you download almost instantly to your phone/tablet. The internet as we knew it is mostly dead, everywhere is a walled garden of shit.

A:\
Guys I found the zoom zoom infiltrator
- It's been a while ok? 😀

Would love some older internet gen input here: is this a "gen [whatever] is so [negative trait here] because they are [generation group]" or "younger ppl be stupid"?

Context: Am a millennial. At my first "real job" (as in, in the industry I got my degree in) I worked with ONE (1) other person, who was an early Gen-Xer. After developing a report with each other and becoming friendly, he lamented to me about how it seems like "millennials (not you, of course)" seem so helpless - like they can't figure things out on their own. Always asking "where is-" or "how do i-" before even examining the problem at hand and/or the resources available.

This dude was a self-proclaimed "blue fish in a red sea," and we worked with a wide age-range of sales ppl. I mention this, bc in the two years I worked with this nerd (and he was a fucking nerd, taking into account modern day and late 80s-early 90s standards of the term), his complaints about millennials never sounded like media parrot-speech. He was literally befuddled about the operational differences between generations.

It 100% seemed like an ageist thing. This was the late 2010's, pre-covid.

I'm in my 30s now and am equally baffled when my teenaged niece (weird familial age gap - not relevant here) doesn't know how to make the tap water hot when there's only one knob instead of two. She asked outloud but I refused to acknowledge or answer her. Niece figured it out shortly on her own, as expected.

So-... maybe younger people are just, yknow, dumb? Or recognize that, when surrounded by more experienced others, it takes less effort to ask for guidance than to waste energy through trial and error-?

Not trying to prove a point here. Just legit curious if anyone older has had similar experiences and can offer insight into whether this is a "zoomers are-" or "younger people are-" observation.

I think you're spot on with "young people dumb". Takes a while to figure out.. like, everything.
Generations will have different strong and\or weak areas because their environment changes, but our sum total of "competence" will stay the same IMHO.
- We were equally dumb when younger, it is just that we look at them now with the experience we accumulated.
  And we can flip the table and ask why no one is taking the time to train these young people. Stop being an old grumpy person and help the next generation.
I've definitely noticed the younger ones are used to asking any question and having it simply answered. They grew up with the internet, it's obvious I suppose, and chatgpt is just going to make that worse. The juniors and entry-level people coming in are smart, but I feel like I'm seeing lower problem solving and critical thinking.
Things like "it doesn't work", okay well what you you tried? What things did you attempt before giving up. Idk, definitely a different mindset.
- It's difficult not to mouth off, but perhaps worth the effort.
  My 6yo will look for an object for approximately 0.25 seconds before yelling to ask where it is. Sometimes he can't even spot things I'm pointing directly at.
  Other times I'm taken off guard by his quick wit or long memory.
  Wisdom always comes at a cost. We should not shame those who are still saving up for the down payment.
- Part of it is that they've grown up with smartphones and tablets, so they don't understand the basic functions of computers.
  Schools have mostly moved to Chromebooks, so kids don't learn how to save and organize files locally. Everything in their lives is in the cloud or in a specialized app.
  Trying to work on a PC with a shared file server on a business network without additional training is like trying to converse in a language they've never spoken.
  GenXers and elder Millennials were the last people who learned tech skills on PCs first. There are very few younger people who ever needed to learn basic DOS prompts or how to troubleshoot problems.
  They're used to everything just working without additional intervention, and they have no idea where to start looking for answers when it doesn't. Most of that is our fault -- we've made things far too easy for them because it's more comfortable for us as parents and teachers to give them the answers than to guide them as they struggle with the challenge.
- I'm training a 26yo right now. He's eager to figure things out. I've made things easy and comfortable to learn and he's thriving on my efforts (positivly) he's doing well with appropriate training. However I have a 50 year old that is trailing heavily behind because he wants things to just work.
  I'm trying to build a system that provides ease of use but it seems like the older gen isn't interested in it working and more just like getting an easy paycheck.
- Since I started learning enough about computers that I have a reason to be hanging out in forums and issue trackers I've really changed the way I think about tech problems.
  From feedback given to me, and to others, and from general posting guidelines, I learned to be more systematic about looking for answer. Going through the process of writing out in full what happened can clarify things. I often start writing a question, never to post it because it gets solved half way through. Assemble the logs. Check the environment isn't wonky somehow. Upgrade everything. Check the docs. Check the latest release notes. Verify the details.
  I've always been comfortable with the software side of computers but I have a lot more confidence lately because of all this. But I never would have been able to learn it on my own. Equally important as the thinking is that I know I can lean on community members to help me get through those cognitive bottlenecks. By reading the vast archives of prior discussions and problem solving, and occasionally asking my own, or even answering if possible, I'm getting smarter at my areas of interest every year.
  But I wasn't born knowing that, nor was it kept from me. I got socialized into a certain way of doing and thinking things that is appropriate to these situations. There is no reason why any newcomer would arrive so socialized. So you need to bring them through the process.
My husband is an IT engeneer and every day is a different story about how zoomers don’t even know how to save a pdf file or print some shit
Seems kind of like he's shaming people for asking questions at work, which is kind of a bad take. Does he know that they didn't examine the problem first?
The word you wanted there was "rapport."
The thing is, research and learning is itself a skill that must be learned, and they don't teach critical thinking skills in school. Without an occasional friction-laden experience of figuring something out by trial and error, you won't ever learn HOW to learn, and I think that's the thing people get hung up on here. It not "younger ppl be stupid" its just literally "younger people are generally exhibiting less and less critical thinking skills year over year".
What's the point of these shitty designations? Isn't hatred caused by racism etc. enough for people? Do you really have to artificially talk about a better DNA like Hitler in order to discriminate against and hate a large part of humanity? Fuck anyone who uses such bullshit discrimination.
It's the same fucking thinking as the nazis... The main thing is to make huge groups that you can hate and you think you're above them...

The number of people in this thread stumped by the “rotate a PDF” comment, even what it means at all, while a smartphone has been 95-100% of their “computer” usage in their lives.

I was born in the 80's, I did IT bachelor's and then print design studies which used all of the Adobe suite and I genuinely don't understand what rotating a pdf means.
My first OS was DOS.
Edit my point is I'm sure I know how to, I just don't know what it means
- PDF is in landscape orientation, you need it portrait (say someone scanned the documents in sideways, it happens annoyingly often), or some similar situation
Wait until they are asked to split and merge PDFs.

I used to know everything there was on 95 to windows 7 but things keep changing so I just stopped caring.

My gen z son is like a computer wizard to me a fairly proficient millennial so I don’t think it’s a generational thing

- Ever seen an adult open Google Chrome, type in google, click the first link to www.google.com, then click the search bar on the page and begin to search? I have.

I was born in 83, and grew up in the time where being a computer need required real work and knowledge of computers.

The things got easier and easier, and then the smartphones came.

These new kids literally don't know how to search a file directory because they are used to the apps magicing stuff where it needs to be.

I remember watching an interview with the CEO of SUN microsystems in the 90's argue that you didn't need to know how to run a nuclear power plant to use a light switch, and you shouldn't have to know how a computer works to use one.

I guess his vision came true, and we're mad about it?

I am genuinely having a hard time with my Gen Z employee. I have to go through everything step by step each time and it just seems like nothing sticks. I even create documentation for him and he just can't follow it fully.

I'm truly baffled and any advice is welcome.

Have you tried video tutorials? I have noticed that a lot of younger people are more likely to look up tutorials on YouTube than written ones.
As a GenXer, I'm kind of horrified by how much of the "how-to" universe is shifting from written instructions to video.
(No, I don't want a video tutorial for how to knit a scarf. I want a normal pattern. Am I so out of touch? No, it’s the children who are wrong.)
Seriously, though, the next time you go through something with this employee, use a screen recorder to capture the process and then share the recording with him. Maybe it will help.
- For me it depends on what I need instructions for. Some things, like maybe fixing something in my car, I'm going to go directly to YouTube... But for things I might have more familiarity with and don't need a constant visual, I'll take written every time.
- To me, that's just a difference in how people learn things in general. Some people will learn better from watching a tutorial, some people learn from reading instructions and some learn by fiddling around until they figure it out. The best way to figure out how to educate someone is to figure out how they learn things. Not everybody's brains work the same way and that's just true for everyone regardless of age.
- I also don't want a video because I can READ a helluva lot faster than it takes to watch a video.
  I can also reference back to WRITTEN information much faster. Everything about shifting from written medium to video is about commodifying content, rather than a better exchange of information. And it sucks.
Make a tiktok with "apple" by charli xcx in the background, subway surfers footage in the corner, and make the camera move further away from the screen (whats screen recording?) at random points.
- Also make sure at one point to have a really poorly masked video of yourself talking over the background video
Maybe he's trying to perform above his IQ. Some people can't learn some things.
I've been seeing a lot of posts about how nobody can get through the AI filters when applying for jobs.
These are the people who get through the filters.
- This is the best advice for dealing with zoomers.
Fire him. Not able to follow procedure. So many people do not deserve jobs.
- May you live in exactly the kind of society you ask for.
- So many people do not deserve jobs.
  That's kind of gross... Maybe they don't "deserve" the job that they have, but they deserve jobs.
- So much fucking this. So many people these days are straight up just useless at their jobs, but companies and managers tend to fall into some sort of toxic positivity bullshit and it's just so hard to give negative feedback to someone notoriously bad at their job somehow. An advice would be to just keep it honest and expect some sort of improvement, otherwise they may try their luck somewhere else.

Me trying to show a zoomed where a file is on the network. Me: "Open file explorer" Zoomer: "What?" Me: "Files..." Zoomer: "Huh?" Me: "Just click the folder." Zoomer: "Ohhhhhh"

Almost as bad as watching my boomer coworker open notepad and drag a file into it. Just double click or right click open with. Ahhhhh.

A few years ago I saw an article that Gen Z struggled with file organization. In basic terms, search functions have gotten so good that the majority of Gen Z doesn't use file organization on computers or phones. When in a work setting they are confused when digital items need to be organized into a file structure. Part of the problem is that most of them have never had to use a real world filing system. Part of the problem is that they are only used to handling their own disorganized files. In a business setting it generally isn't acceptable to dump all your files into a local "Downloads" file and rely on the search function to locate mission critical files.
When the article I am referencing came out other people stated that they had experienced similar phenomena in the PC world. They remembered when soldering was an expected norm of PC building, but with the passage of time it was no longer necessary or expected.
- soldering was an expected norm of PC building
  There has never been an IBM PC-compatible that expected soldering of its user in order to function. Maybe if you wanted to upgrade the RAM on your motherboard prior to inline memory modules, but that's hardly an end-user task, you'd take it to a technician to do that.
- I don't really know if search got good. I am gen z admittedly on the earlier side of the generation but I try keeping my files organised in a sensible way. Never use search because I uave not had good experiences with it. I hate organising files on my phone because apps just save stufd into 5 million diffeent folders for no reason.
I teach CS at the freshman level. I don't use a Mac, but I had to spend ten minutes over zoom teaching the basic functions to a student who didn't know where the notepad equivalent was.
- Having to explain what a text editor is and what a text file is to grown-ass adults has become a recurring waking nightmare. Trying to explain the difference between a Word document and a text file? Fucking FORGET it.
My family had a Gateway computer, so my parents weren't complete babes in the woods... but it still drives me nuts to this day to see my mom double click on URLs. They think because they had to double click icons on their Windows 95 desktop 30 years ago, that they have to double click literally everything.

I'm old, Gandalf. I may not look it, but I feel this meme in my bones.

During a zoom, I was presenting my full screen and was opening a new tab instantly with the scroll wheel click and the zoomers on the call was mind blown.

I've had similar experiences teaching zoomers basic shortcuts: ctrl-c, ctrl-v, alt-tab, ctrl-shift-esc. Makes me feel like a wizard. They might think I am a wizard.
- They might as well call you Harry.
I just can't understand the lack of curiosity... You have a mouse with several buttons and you're not even going to test them out on things?
- How often do they use mice and keyboards? I get what people who don't use shortcuts look like to you all, but I know how many times I've had to help someone older who works with computers, including just straight up DOS-looking internal text prompt systems fine, remember how to highlight text on a phone to copy, or even be able to look up their apps without clicking on the homescreen ones.
  Some people just really only get good with one tool at a time and don't have the energy for more, and for the younger average person that tool's gonna be the one they grew up with, the phone.

IM TRYING MAN

My 8 year old knows how to keyboard a little. I haven't figured out if they're gonna teach him in school or not, so I'm erring on the side of caution

"How do I rotate this PDF? I need to print it."
"Uh, you can just set it to print in landscape mode."
(Scornful stare, for using space age words) "NO! I must ROTATE the PDF!"

I'm sure I had a conversation like this with one of the acquaintances of my dad

That's when you just say "well, that's the only way I know how to do it. Good luck"
Just tilt your head like a German Shepherd

be me
zoomer
use linux
i use linux
i don't know how to use windows, or macos
i dont know how to use the most popular operating systems
wait
i am the joke now

TBH your IT skill set is incomplete if you neglect the most used desktop OS. If you don’t work in IT, then more power to you.
- listen man, if you're going to hire me for an IT position, you better assume i will do nothing other than linux, unless you want to pay me a lot more fucking money, or want me to be very mad, all of the time.
Same (I use arch btw). Although I do end up using MacOS at work.
- literally (i use arch btw also), though my server runs on debian, so i have that under my belt.

As a developer and avid Linux enjoyer, I myself don't know why the printer won't connect.

Because they designed it not to. Printer manufacturers were way ahead of the curve on enshittification.
As a cyber security engineer, it's because it hates you. It also hates me. The printer knows nothing but rage.
I have been shocked to find that my printer not only connects on linux and stays connected without much effort but does so over wifi. Ink clogs all the time tho....🫠

...And yet again, Gen X has been forgotten.

Cool cool.

They are really more alike than any other two generations.

Yeah. Late gen x to late millennial seems to be the sweet spot for understanding how technology works.

I am what you would call a boomer. But I do not only know how to rotate a PDF, I also know how to generate one from a number of sources with software I have written...

You're a computer boomer, basically don't count. A lot of millennials, with no relation to tech, can use the computer at least for basic stuff. That can't be said about any other generation.
- My grandma was a computer boomer, she always had way nicer gear than me.
- It can be said for Gen X.
Laughs at opening PDF in a text editor and manually reading/editing things. (It was a bit complicated problem that made me do these things and don't recommend it)
- Been there, seen that, but got no T-shirt

Let's be fair though. Adobe changes the Acrobat interface every two weeks for no reason. PDF has always been an absolute shitshow, super slow, walled garden format. After like 30 years it's still a 30 step process to add a note box with an arrow that looks half decent

Adobe did that to me twice and then I uninstalled it and never gave Adobe another chance. There are plenty of good free pdf editors that I don't need to support such a terrible and greedy company
- Recommend me a few. I have Evince & Papers, both the old & new GNOME standards respectfully.

The smartphone and it's consequences to the human society...

I actually thought I am part of this blessed generation that can use a computer. But rotating a PDF? That beats me.

Edit: In Okular it's actually easy to find this function. I was never looking for this for my whole life.

The real skillset isn't necessarily knowing how to do these things off tbe top of your head, but knowing how to look them up.
Perhaps the biggest obstacle for the next generation is how thoroughly Google has enshittified.
- Cobbling together four different online tutorials about a vague idea you think the damn program should do is the original "vibe programming". I am looking at you Power Automate.
Just pick up your laptop and rotate it to whatever angle you want.
- Instructions unclear. I have a desktop PC and now my monitor arm is broken. My 38 inch screen fell on the floor. You'll hear from my lawyers.
Ctrl+shift+plus sign
- Or ctrl + alt + down arrow also work
LibreOffice Draw should work just fine for that :)
- Are you joking right now? I tried opening a pdf with Libre Draw recently but it didn’t work.
Sounds like something imagemagick could do so that would be my first strategy to try
PDF is a pointless file format that should not exist. Come at me.
- 10000 times better than the previously mainstream way which was people sending you office docs expecting you could open that shit.
- It's good for sending documents you don't want to be tampered with because most people don't know how to edit a PDF.
- Pointless?? Really? We should have just stuck with postscript? I’m pretty happy with pdf for almost anything as there’s a good chance it’ll render how whoever sent it to me was seeing it. What would you suggest/do different?

The more I think about it PDFs are our fax machine and that shit just needs to go away.

What are you guys using pdfs for? They're idiot proof.
- You clearly don't use digital signatures in PDFs

    
pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endright output output.pdf

You mean
docker run -d
\ --name stirling-pdf
\ -p 8080:8080
\ -v "./StirlingPDF/trainingData:/usr/share/tessdata"
\ -v "./StirlingPDF/extraConfigs:/configs"
\ -v "./StirlingPDF/customFiles:/customFiles/"
\ -v "./StirlingPDF/logs:/logs/"
\ -v "./StirlingPDF/pipeline:/pipeline/"
\ -e DOCKER_ENABLE_SECURITY=false
\ -e LANGS=en_GB
\ docker.stirlingpdf.com/stirlingtools/stirling-pdf:latest
- Bro forgot to give instructions to install docker and linux.
- what in the name of Linus Torvard is that!
- this is actually retarded
Just rotate your monitor. Durrr.

i disagree. Training boomers is easier because they know what computers are. Zoomers often see computers as "web browsing machines" or "gaming machines"

Please don't lump me in with the iPad kids.

Is there some magic to rotating a PDF? I just opened one and there's a button in Firefox saying "Rotate clockwise" and "Rotate anticlockwise". Are we talking something rotating and then saving the PDF so it stays rotated or just rotating it after it's already loaded? Or is this about rotating the PDF so it can be printed out?

I went from learning to touch type at a bajillion wpm by playing World of Warcraft, to only using my desktop to filing taxes, and desktop UI is now sometimes overwhelming. PDF viewers and image editors, holy shit, where should I begin in my hunt to do some minor tweak? Looks like a Boeing 787 flight deck in comparison to a phone's UI, menus and buttons all over the place. I'm not bad to the point that I click random buttons and turn it into a mess, but I can see how someone would just stumble around

I remember a game wouldn't work until i adjusted the screen resolution in like 98

Not true

Millennials think it's them , because they learned how. Gen X knows, because they wrote it.

Adding to this. HMI's change across time and what feels logical/intuitive/common sense to one demographic, might not to another.

So, the key takeaway is everyone has a different experience, and that is okay.

I would be happy to never see a PDF again, can we not have something better?

I always think it's like complaining that nobody under a certain age can use the card catalog, microfiche or whatever. Technology changes. I have so many leftover now useless skills; please God may the ones related to Adobe rot on that same pile soon.

PDF has its place. I'm sure there's something better that could replace it, but PDF is ubiquitous.
I hate getting sent docx files or whatever that stupid iPad notes format is. I open it and the formatting is all screwed up. Or I can't open it at all.
When I send files, it's a PDF, so I know they are seeing exactly what I am seeing. Exactly as it was meant to be seen.
What's wrong with pdf?
- Adobe
Technology may change, but we still haven't made anything better than microfilm or microfiche for long term document archival.
Mostly we seem to have just given up on the idea of there being a future in 500 years.
Fine, use DVI.
You've got SVG.
But the main +ive point of a PDF is that it is a pain to work with.

Ctrl + Alt + Arrow Key

well thanks, millenial

All my homies hate excel

Can't blame a generation that wasn't raised on computers as well as you can't blame a generation that was raised by algothrims. I'm a millennial too, one of the older ones, and I have felt my tech literacy decay over the past ten years as the cancer that is silicon valley has spread and dominated the internet. It is to the point that I feel so trapped when I try to do anything online that becoming passive feels like the only choice if you play their game.

I have the benefit of remembering what the internet used to be like and what it still has the potential to be in the future, but the youths of today never experienced that. To them the internet is a feeding machine that encourages nay grooms them into becoming passive consumers. I can't blame someone who literally never got the chance to learn because some tech bro scumbags in America decided that they should abuse their power to turn people into addicts.

So what this suggests to me is that zoomers are so up their own cell phones that they never bothered to learn how to use pepper computers. That almost funny. Mocking laughter is warring with weary head shaking in me.

Yea surprise some people are good at using computers some are bad, has nothing to do with whatever generation someone is apart of, generation labels are so dumb. Literally every "milleinal" I've known comes to me for their computer problems.

Gen Z is not the same thing as Gen Alpha. Gen Z grew up on PC.

Kind of interesting how quickly the smartphone usage exploded but also how it wasn't that long ago. Early Z most definitely grew up as PC users while late Z grew up with mobile being the primary website visiting tool.
I had to do some quick checking and this is what I found.
If we use Wikipedias timeline picture then Zoomers are born 1997-2012 (the text also references 1995, but I used the graphic):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Z
In 2011 (Gen Z are now -1 to 14 years old) web traffic was predominantly according to smartinsights.com:
I think that here the main point to remember is that many users will continue to access the web via their desktop PCs. In 2011 most companies I talk to still have a tiny proportion of their web traffic via mobile searches - it's usually much less than 5% - so it's worth checking your analytics for mobile usage first and foremost.
https://www.smartinsights.com/mobile-marketing/mobile-marketing-analytics/mobile-usage-statistics-2010-2015/
In 2015 (Gen Z are now 3 to 18 years old) things has begun to switch with most western countries reporting between 15% to 30% of web traffic being mobile:

https://datareportal.com/reports/digital-2015-global-digital-overview
In 2020 (Gen Z are now 8 to 23 years old) 61% of US website visits are from mobile devices:
Mobile devices drove 61% of visits to U.S. websites in 2020, up from 57% in 2019. Desktops were responsible for 35.7% of all visits in 2020, and tablets drove the remaining 3.3% of visitors.
https://www.perficient.com/insights/research-hub/mobile-vs-desktop-usage

How the fuck do you rotate a pdf

- hah ! this guy.... ahhh... yes, that does it
Ctrl shift +
- Well shit, that works. Thank you !
Easy, but then people will throw up their hands and say,"That's not easy, how the fuck am I supposed to know that?"
pdftk input.pdf cat 1-endeast output output.pdf
You know that through man pages, tdlr or whatever. Then if you find yourself doing it a lot, you make a tiny script that makes the process something like
pdfr <input> <optional output>
- well I wrote that in my URL bar and it didn't do anything !
Swipe down from the top of your screen and turn off 'Auto Rotate'.
- All I get is greasy smudges on my 32" monitor ! I've been duped !

For fuck's sake, give us 2005-2007 kids a microgeneration. We're like late zillennials.

ZILLENIALS ARE HEREBY A RECOGNIZED SUBSET OF COMPETENT COMPUTER USERS
- Yeah, but I technically fall outside of the zillennial microgen. We're right in the middle of Gen Z, and yet we barely fit the stereotype.
- As a 2007 kid I don't many of my peers actually are but we are pretty different than post 2007 kids. I still grew up with satellite tv for the most part.

How did we fail so hard? Where did we go wrong?

lol did you get this from whoever posted it an hour earlier? Or did you just both get it from the same place?

This thread if it was explained by Kayne West. Funny, but mega Slur warning

And they're almost as conservative as boomers too. Fucking shame.

Are you sure?
- The number of them fully embracing and aspiring to things like tradwive life is terrifying. Their motivations are different, but the result is very similar.

There should be a class where they force you to install arch Linux without the automated install script and force people to learn how an OS works, or even make them do a Gentoo installation. You only pass it if you get to a fully functioning PC with a web browser and desktop environment

Why stop at Arch? I had to write my own kernel in college let's make everyone do that.
Yes, I'm posting this to point out the silliness of your idea.
I'd argue more in favor of a desktop, web browser & office suite

You're old

what does rotating a pdf even mean? like rotating all the pages from portrait → landscape and vice-versa, or something else? could i rotate a pdf 60°?

All the pages or one, but yea

the x and millieials designed a system to keep them employed and minimized the number of future prospects to replace them. saying with half sarcasm

Fawk you. Boomers are happy, what about you?

Boomers are what they believe happiness to be, but they are very much not actually happy. Happy people don't belligerently complain about every little thing every opportunity they get like boomers frequently do.

Good. We don't need to learn any of this shit. You can do it ourselves and facilitate the tools for us users