Former GM Executive: BYD cars are good in terms of design, features, price, quality. If we let BYD into the U.S. market, it could end up destroying american manufacturers
nytimes.com
Capitalism is all about competition unless it's not.
Capitalism isn't about anything other than keeping the ruling class rich and in power. How it chooses to do that has varied throughout time. During the 20th Century the lie was that "American Style" capitalism was fair because the capitalists would promote Laissez-faire style economics ("Free Trade") out of their mouths, while actually building monopolies.
With the rise of Trump-style 'conservatives' Republicans have adopted a new strategy, Mercantilism. Mercantilism doesn't even pretend to be fair or free. The word 'Competition' doesn't even appear anywhere in that article because competition is bad for Capitalists and they see no reason to continue to lie about that. They actively oppose free trade.
Even if 'Capitalists' possessed the ability to feel shame for being hypocrites (which they certainly do not), calling them out for not following along with the principles of 'the free market' does no good since they have abandoned advocating for that a while ago.
Would be great if the competition was not about stealing others' technologies
Good. Fuckem. They make shitty, oversized trucks that are a danger to pedestrians and people who drive reasonably sized cars anyway.
Tariffs be damned, I will not buy an American brand car. They've been mediocre my whole life and it's always been easier to source parts for Hondas and Toyotas. I'm not sure how repairable any EV is, but I doubt American brands will top the charts of value in repairability in my lifetime
I'm not sure how repairable EVs are either, since my 2013 Leaf never needed repairs in 12 years. Just tires and wiper blades.
Yeah that's a good point in a sense. Mechanically I think they're a lot less repairable (or at least a lot less at home repairable), but from the angle of needing repairs, they also need less repairs because most of what tends to fail on ICE vehicles is all the mechanical stuff attached to the engine. Even on my hybrid I repair a ton less and my mechanic said that because all the accessories are electronic since they can't be belt/chain driven because the engine is off half the time that they're ultimately more reliable in the end - it's the mechanical aspects of them that fail on ICE vehicles.
Got a subaru as my first non-american car. The old CVT torque converter is wearing out after 120k miles, but she survived being lightly t-boned with just a door repair
Manual swap time
After 25 years of other brands I finally went Honda and I can't believe how happy I am with it. I never have problems.
Over the years I think Honda and Toyota are the two brands I most commonly see an old guy managing to keep running well for 30+ years and hyper focused on wanting to break 500k miles or dreaming of hitting 1 million miles someday
American made car? Ya, I own a Toyota Sienna. And ya, I don't think I'd buy an American brand again.
But it would also help american people. Which is more important, I wonder.
Stop giving them more reasons not to allow it
Maybe GM could, I don't know, innovate?
As an European living in Asia and can't help but cringe at American cars. They're so far behind. And it's the car country. Japan has better cars and better rail. Embarassing.
Agreed. I'm American and think American manufacturers make the ugliest and worst cars. Outside of the Corvette, which remains the best spots car in it's price range.
They have some wonderful new finamcial products released just this quarter!
Targeted tariffs and protectionism can help a situation like this, combined with subsidies like the ones Trump cancelled, to give legacy manufacturers a temporary respite to retool and innovate. However backtracking on your transition, reverting to the tried and true short term profits is just hiding your head in the sand. GM will find itself increasingly marginalized and more years behind. You can’t hide behind trumps skirt forever
Good, let's do it. I'm tired of our tax money keeping shitty car companies floating.
And no competition. I'm pretty sure that they can shave some of the price off from that massive jump that came with COVID due to [checks list] "supply chain issues" and yet never went back down after...
So free markets are a terrible idea now and countries practicing import substitution weren't impoverishing their people.
US hypocrisy at it's finest.
Our free market's good, yours is the problem! Gotta read the fine print!
„Free market“? Speaking of hypocrisy. Chinese car brands are so heavily subsidized they probably cost the Chinese economy more than they make selling them at the moment. China is clearly trying to drown the global market with cheap cars so they can ramp up prices immensely once they have killed the competition and have become a monopoly. China hasn‘t been the extreme low income country to produce super cheaply for a long time and they couldn‘t produce cars this cheap in a free market situation.
Many countries and the EU have measures against such practices because state run operations with the sole purpose to destroy an industry (which this is) undermine the very idea of the free market or even trade relationships.
Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers and play the same little game China is playing but more cars is honestly the last thing we need right now. Tariffs are a much smoother option to deal with this even when they have a bad rep.
Ideally we use that generated money from tariffs to subsidize public transport so we don‘t get cheaper cars but cheaper alternatives but that‘s still just a dream I‘m afraid.
Whatever the case, one should look at super cheap cars and what that means in the long run more critically.
Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers
We have been. Bailout after bailout. For the longest fucking time, and have had insane trade rules and tarrigs in place for decades and decades. I'd argue this is what it looks like to have another country finally being able to play on a level playing field.
If something is being so heavily subsidized, the correct market response is to buy as much as possible, and resell once the prices ramp up.
Setting up tariffs and complaining about subsidies? 100% not the "free market" response. It's cope.
We have subsidized the big three many times, and they return nothing back. At this point, they should be nationalized.
You have a very simple way of looking at things and are part of the problem that is going on.
Your ignorance is showing. Tuck it in.
Free markets were always a terrible idea, the USA economic system was basically founded on principles of regulation of goods like tea, tobacco, and alcohol.
It's not a free market.
BYD is heavily subsidized .
Pretty sure big oil and car companies have been bailed out by the US government in the past. Plus america designs most of its cities so that you need to own a car. Seems like both markets are equally "free" at the end of the day.
American car makers famously unsubsidized and holding up their own pants.
I mean, didn’t Japanese and Korean automakers already do that?
Yes. They did. That's called competition. It forces companies to improve by destroying them, except they don't want that. And politicians don't want that, cause it makes corruption unstable.
Killed Detroit too, though. But, eh, helped other parts. It's life.
Thus already in the 90s with the TRON OS a different approach was chosen by US regulators - threaten Japan with sanctions if it's allowed to compete with Windows inside Japan .
They can't threaten China, but they can prevent Chinese competitive goods from entering US market and improving its economy again.
Bad economy - poor and stressed people, poor and stressed people - worse political decisions, worse political decisions - good for middlemen which in our age shouldn't exist frankly. We have the technologies for direct democracy, it's not 1920s.
Dam maybe some of the American automakers who took billions in subsidies should have built cheaper cars instead of the largest trucks possible to skirt regulations.
I literally can't afford an American car, i can afford a BYD tho.
I can afford neither, but if I had to save up for one it would be the BYD.
American cars are just large, stupid and inefficient. Also the parts are very expensive here in New Zealand
I bought a used Chevrolet Bolt '23 which is the closest I could get, they're still relatively cheap and mine has been working great.
They have never considered actually competing have they?
They’ve actually done the exact opposite. The lobbying, the import laws, the absence of a foreign export market, and the manufacturing of cars that would never pass safety laws anywhere else, all resulted in the kind of dogshit that Americans have to experience now. Why improve if you’re the only player
They have an export market, its the handful of douchebags in Australia that want compensator trucks instead of a ute
Big corporations know very well how competition works and would like to avoid it at all costs.
Former big corporation*
Who also worked primarily in Chinese Automotive industry*
They do. For example here. Just not in your country.
They don’t compete here either.
They’ve stopped producing passenger cars, and the Chicken Tax means they don’t have to compete on trucks.
Couldn't have a thought further from his mind
Detroit is easy to hate but there’s more wrong here than how much can-do energy they wake up in the morning with. If they competed on features and quality they could never compete on price. Everything we do to keep the dollar strong makes it impossible to manufacture here.
Nah man, that's not the purpose of unrestrained capitalism. The point is to get big enough that you can buy out all the competition, then make your product cheaper and cheaper once there's no one to compete against. It's a bit like an economical algae bloom.
Michael Dunne has been competing the entire time, for the Chinese. His statements here aren't fear, they're shillery.
They saw what happened in the 70s and said never again will they have to actually compete with better products
Six months ago I moved from the US to a country where BYD and other Chinese brands are available. In the past I owned GM cars. The former GM executive is correct. After trying Chinese cars I find it extremely difficult to justify paying 40-60% more for a car made by GM or anyone else. GM’s best selling cars here are made by its Chinese joint ventures and aren’t available for sale in the US, and they are the only GM cars I would buy.
They're pretty well known here for low quality flashy vehicles, with premiums for luxury not quality.
The same thing happened in the 80s with Japan. The Japanese were no longer making crappy cars but small and very reliable, affordable cars. Detroit was still making rust buckets, obsessing over powerful engines with bodies that rotted out and defects galore. Detroit got beaten up badly (Chrysler had to get a gov bailout) until they cleaned up their act and improved their products. Protecting Detroit from competition would've just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/how-detroits-automakers-went-from-kings-of-the-road-to-roadkill/
We still don't let in the small pickups the rest of the world enjoys.
defects galore
A friend of mine from high school attended the GM Institute and became an engineer for them. One of his first projects was on a team that bought a Lexus and an Infiniti when they first came on the market and took them apart to see how many production defects they had. He said a typical American car at the time (and this was in the '90s after quality had rebounded somewhat from its disastrous nadir) had 300-400 defects. The Infiniti they took apart had 2. The Lexus had 0.
Did Japan back then pay their assembly line workers the equivalent of $5k USD/year (in today's dollars) and have nearly no worker protections? Not a rhetorical question; I just don't know. Seems like Japan had a better standard of living back then compared to Chinese workers now, so I would guess their workers were compensated and treated better.
Not defending US auto corps (or any corp for that matter). The regulatory capture in the US is insane, and workers aren't treated as well as most of the rest of the first world.
Japan used state capitalism to promote it’s auto industry and other key sectors to sustain strong growth. America’s weakened billionaire owned government system is just being strip mined into the ground. We won’t be able to compete in an economy that’s only product is wealth extraction because of our massive corruption.
Japan back then had (and still has) an interesting socioeconomic system, a bit similar to samurai clans went cartels, where workers are supposed to work all their life in one place (or close to that), don't squeal about worker rights and such, but be covered by lots of company-provided social nets and guarantees.
5K/year isn't exactly poverty when rent is <200, phone data is 20, and you can get pic for 1.50 USD. I too would like them to be treated better, but I dont know if their overall situation is worse than the average american worker making 50K, but spending 24K on rent, 12K on car payments, and 16USD if they eat out.
I would kill for a small electric truck... Telo is calling my name, but they don't have a functioning product yet.
Right there with you on small trucks, the kid and I have been drooling over the Slate even if it is Bezos. I drive a '98 Ranger, and we've been kicking around the idea of a Ranger electric conversion.
Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
And it did. Japanese companies maintained a solid portion of the market in the US, a notable lead in quality, and many consumers no longer willing to waste money on crappy overpriced low quality cars from American companies. American cars were forced to get better and they’re better off for it, but they resisted the entire time, just like today.
Newsflash: American car manufacturer says "Our cars are crap and overpriced"
Michael Dunne is actually someone who worked in Chinese Automotive manufacturing. He's the Chinese car manufacturer saying "Chinese cars are good and cheap."
His word is basically meaningless.
So here is the thing.
U lost. The moment I need American people to bail you out, you need to treat American people way way the fuck better.
Worker rights, mandatory vacations, work protections, pensions, guaranteed healthcare etc.
Bailouts are unacceptable period. Trained workers, factories, factory hardware, logistics specialists, engineers, patents and so on - they all remain in the economy. That a company fails and goes bankrupt is not a bad thing. It's just that company. Not the industry as a whole. If there are no additional mechanisms.
Somehow Americans seem to have forgotten that the kind of "capitalism" which gets defended is about this exactly - a company goes bankrupt, too bad. There are other companies which will hire its workers and buy its assets. Possibly new companies created by its former employees. Its shareholders have gambled and lost, well, their problem. That's what an unregulated market is, by the way, and not bailouts to big fish and horse dicks for small fish.
If something works differently - workers don't find a new place to work in, factories go to scrap metal, engineers go flip burgers, patents are collected by trolls, and new companies are not being created, - then something has been broken by an existing policy.
Patents are the worst of it, but also non-compete clauses, legal impediments for creating new businesses, legal expenses making it harder, - these things have to be removed.
I mean, people on Lemmy love to dream of something like what you list, those things are good, but maybe fixing some basic things about what you already have is no less useful. Especially since these fixes do not cost any money to maintain, while, well, pensions and healthcare do.
why bail out the companies and not the people?
(/s, i was joking, lf course in US companies value more than human life)
So they dont care about making cars for the world market, they just want regulations to allow them to milk the american market...
As is tradition
Decoupling the market was them admitting their stuff is not as popular to the global market
Where free market? It will regulate itself /s
Well China did subsidize that industry massively, to a point were their domestic market is flooded with very low margins. So the market is already very distorted. But I find it hard to hate on that because flooding the market with electric vehicles and solar panels is better than anything economists are coming up with.
Plus people usually bring it up in a stupid way. Yes they did. Yes we do that too (for all the “we” on the internet). Some amount of that is entirely normal on the global market.
The real problem is US conservatives who understand car manufacturing is a strategic industry but do not want to give that guidance to aid the transition to new technology, US politicians who can’t cooperate on a coherent long term industrial policy, US politicians who can’t look beyond short term profits for their corporate owners, or outrage headlines for their constituents. There’s nothing magical about Chinese companies taking over the industry, nothing hidden, just politicians establishing a strategy and sticking with it long enough to benefit
It will. It really does regulate itself, no /s needed.
Except that happens via some businesses going bankrupt and some adjusting.
And either it's free enough for monopolies to crash, or regulated enough for monopolies to be killed, or both.
If it's neither, then you have today's tech industry.
EDIT: And here the fears are that big companies will go down with their shareholders whining and their political cronies suffering and so on. Whether you want free market or literal socialism, the main problem is in separating private narrow interests from the state machine.
If you're one of the largest and oldest car manufacturers in the world and the most "innovative" thing you've managed to do in the last 20 years is rebrand Buick into a young family brand, then you probably need some good competition.
Don’t forget the courage to not support CarPlay/Android Auto … just stupid.
GM, maker of horribly shitty cars, and yeah, the Corvette, we know. We've seen it, GM.
"do you want to see the C9?"
....of course I would.
American manufacturing seems very incapable of change. If things worked this way for decades, why change it? Meanwhile the world moved on and they ask themselves why doesn't anyone wanna buy american...?
You think Americans can't change, just look at German Automakers. They are stuck in Perpetual denial. VW only moved electric because of the massive diesel scandal, otherwise they also would have been like every other car manufacturer.
Yes, but nobody ever expected Germany to be quick and adapt. Germany does not do that in general. It takes something that exists, perfects it, and then sells the perfection of the existing thing, ideally until really not a single person on the world needs it anymore. US on the other hand, has the reputation where innovation begins and does wonders. I am asking myself, where is the innovation in their autoindustry? Last thing was actually Tesla itself, when they started producing first electric cars.
It is the same situation, but the expectation is completely opposite.
Even if they changed how would they win?
They're just too expensive to manufacture as compared to chinese ones.
They could try going for quality or features.
But instead they are only going for size, what 94% of the world does not care for or want. (this includes the 5% of Americans)
I am union so don’t misunderstand the comment, but doesn’t BYD rely heavily on terribly paid non-union labor to reach it’s price advantage?
Tesla somehow manages to do well(at least prior to the nazi events). Still at a good price in Norway.
But all other manufacturers have dragged their feet with EVs, and that price cost of starting is large enough that they are in trouble. I'm not a huge fan of China, but they did the investment and are ahead exactly because of that (and crazy subsidies). Being left behind is their own fault imo, and I think that applies a lot to EU as well. Eg. WV.
If they are too expensive due to cost of labor, they can do, look at other comments, increased automation.
With automation China's advantages over US are mostly in the bureaucratic efficiency area. Both in the government's parts interacting with big companies and in the companies themselves.
US big companies are just too used to preferential treatment and solving market problems with lobbying, which worked when they were the spearhead of progress or something.
Expensive is not a problem it it's followed by the appropriate quality. Also, US should be far more able to use tech to automate and make efficient, same as China can use cheap labour. In the end, a robot is a one-time fee, doesn't get sick, and can work 24/7, easy and fast to learn new processes. Long term a robot will always outpeform a human.
American cars have sucked compared to Asian cars since the 1970s. I don't understand why people are acting all surprised that this is true in respect to BYD. Sure in the past products designed in China were stereotyped as poor quality knock offs of western designed goods, but in the past decade Chinese engineers have increasingly proven themselves as perfectly capable of making solid, innovative designs that improve upon those of their competitors. I think it's kind of fucked up that everyone is so suddenly upset about China's role in the world economy since everyone was completely fine using them for cheap labor over the past several decades and are just mad that Chinese companies are beating them at high skill labor and technology. Chinese companies do have an "unfair advantage" given how much they are backed by the Chinese government but American companies receive all sorts of money from the government for all sorts of things as well.
Americans have come to think of Chinese products as bad quality because of the American companies who engage them for cheaper labor. Walmart was known to order products made to a certain spec one year, then the next year demand the company increase production, but for the same amount paid as the previous year. The Chinese company, not wanting to lose the contract, obliges, but corners have to be cut. It should be called Americanesium, not Chineseum.
Derek Guy (Die, Workwear!) posted a thread a while back (I think about 6 months ago) about how the Chinese can and do make great quality products, pointing out high quality fabrics. Give them money to buy good raw materials, give them a decent wage, and they'll put out a good product. Honestly, they probably have a more fair work ethic than some American companies that just feed their CEOs massive salaries or are owned by private equity.
Its largely american cope that they are not that good at manufacturing anymore. Chinese factories build things to spec, and the customer asks for cheap, so they get cheap.
Honestly, there's a wide range of quality of stuff produced in China, but the expensive stuff isn't getting brought over. The better stuff is either being used domestically or exported to India/SEA. From my limited experience importing stuff, the biggest common factor is the lack of final quality control. I ordered some small diesel engines because no else makes those but Yanmar and Yanmar prices themselves way out of my range. Even Yanmar doesn't sell a 5hp engine. The 196cc Chinese diesel was well designed, the parts well built, but final assembly lacks consistence on the bolt torque spec and there was metal shaving left in the crank case. The bigger, more expensive diesel made by a different company had much better quality control, although it's still necessary to flush the crank case. No one over there seems to do that.
They went through a period in the 90s where they had a huge leap in quality and almost matched Japanese imports of the time. I'd say GM is the only one who's drivetrain quality is still on any comparable level with Asian imports. Ford gets some parts really right but then their beancounters make really dumb cuts to critical components that make many of their vehicles near lemons. I can't think of a worse car manufacturer in the world right now than Stellantis, and they aren't an American company anyway.
The “unfair advantage” bit has been incredibly funny to me ever since I sat in a call to prepare a joint research proposal and the representative of a certain large euro automotive supplier told us that their company would only participate in any project if they got at least a certain amount of government funding.
I don't give two cents for the american auto brands but spare me the drama: try and make a proper car.
Looking at Ford: try importing a few models from the european line and offer it in the states. Small, economic, somewhat reliable, fuel efficient cars.
Stellantis has a slew of models that could be brought into the american market. They make good cars.
And I'm willing to bet GM as a few models they build and market overseas that would be guaranteed sucesses.
Uh, to be clear, I don't think Michael Dunne is advocating against China in this context. He worked in the Chinese auto sector for decades. He isn't an alarmist, he's their salesman.
What Ford European line? They discontinued the Mondeo and their minivans. Now it's hatch or crappy SUV. Or Mustang. Oh wait. Focus is end of life too now. It's mustang or crappy crossover SUVs only.
Not enough Americans will buy small euro cars. Do you seriously think they wouldn't just do that if they could justify the cost of switching off a f150 assembly line to make a small car they would. Ford and Chevy both had a ton of small cars throughout the years but the sales aren't there anymore.
You are wrong. American manufacturers are captured by the oil conglomerates to sell fuel. That's why you have giant behemoths barrelling down the highways. F150s have almost doubled in size over the last two decades.
Ford stopped making cars because they can't compete with the current crop of cars coming from Japan/Korea and Europe regardless of how much money they throw at the problem. They have their niche with trucks and SUVs and are happy to stay there. China builds cars using massive government subsidies, slave labor, and local resources that aren't available to anyone else in the world which is why I think it's right to fight against them because it's impossible to compete against them just like a small local grocery store can't compete against Walmart.
I’m not convinced it’s lack of sales. Trucks are the most profitable to manufacture but sales vary by region and some parts of the country are much more interested in smaller cars, but they ceded that market to Japanese manufacturers
It’s not they they can’t make them or that the sales aren’t there but that trucks are the easy route. They’re more profitable per unit and easier sell in some areas.
Part of this is also sleazy dealerships. Trucks have by far the biggest incentives so sleazy dealerships can get people excited about the “deal” they get over list price
Maybe they should advocate for better fuel regulations and densification ;)
The average new truck costs 50% more. Every small car they sell is a lost truck sale.
Must be a pricing issue.
So when can we stop with this "free markets" nonsense in the third world aswell??
There hasn't ever been a free market. Its a captive market. When you can only succeed by denying a competitor into a market, you prove that. They refuse to rise to the challenge because they don't have to.
I am pretty sure there is some financial fuckery going on with BYD. My parents own two, and they are very nice, but way under priced compared to every other EV manufacturer.
Can't prove anything of course, but there is something odd going on when everyone else is 20-30k more expensive.
Hard to feel sorry for GM though, they suckled at our governments (Australia) teet for decades before giving up and leaving entirely. At least if BYD is being propped up we are at least getting good cheap cars from it.
The financial fuckery is that they're very heavily subsidized by the CCP. It's not sustainable.
I'd argue it is.
Just look how Amazon got where it is now: Sell way under market price, till local competition closed shop, then squeeze.
While they are subsidised, the Chinese are really good at low cost manufacturing. It’s not the cheap labour anymore but factory automation and robotics. They really outclass anyone else.
Brazil shuts BYD factory site over 'slavery' conditions
From 2016 and still true today:
Chinese Government Subsidies Play Major Part In Electric Car Maker BYD's Rise
Yeah, subsidies and other benefits from governments exist but China is going all in.
My only point of confusion is that a 20k loss on every car is insane. I'm guessing its a bit of BYD is subsidised somewhat, and everyone else is price gouging somewhat. No idea the ratio.
Also odd that other Chinese brands (really only tried MG) dont seem to have the same high quality, high pricing that suggests the same level of crazy subsidies.
Honestly, there is just so much fuckery going I just have no idea what is what.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttu55nEtC6o - How BYD overtook Tesla?
China subsidises industries it wants to dominate in, allowing them to sell for less than cost. It's why the EU also tariffs Chinese cars.
Also for anything the big 3 make in the US, I believe they use union labor? Not sure if they did for Aussie market cars.
Former GM Executive: BYD cars are better and cheaper than American. If we let BYD into the U.S. Market, we wouldn't be able to be greedy and enshitify our products any more, which would end up destroying american car manufacturers. FTFY.
P.S. Actually the average american would be benefited from that
Well, nearly half a million mostly union jobs would also be lost, causing a minor recession at the very least. Even if the jobs partially come back in the form of BYD plants, they probably wouldn't be union jobs.
First the enshittified the food
Then the health care
Then every consumer product
Finally they enshittified the nation itself
Before that they enshitified the labor movement and unions via red scare tactics so there was less resistance to the enshitification process
I don't disagree with the criticisms of American cars -- overpriced, uninspired, unreliable, over-engineered, etc. -- but to everyone saying "we should just compete", do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996? It's shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Benefits that are common in the U.S., even in non-union shops, like retirement plans, PTO, worker's comp, and overtime pay are rare. So, yeah, things can be made much cheaper if you are willing to feed your workforce into the grinder.
So we should then let American oligarchs drive American workers to the same but slower? because that is what has happened so far
That is certainly their wet dream, now that they can't easily just move their manufacturing to China and reap all of the benefits like they could 70s - 90s.
I will strongly disagree with “over engineered”. Why a car company with all their money and bailouts that they can’t compete with Apple/Android on touchscreen features and responsiveness is the whole reason why Chinese cars will kill American car companies. Chinese cars support Android auto even when Google play services isn’t even available in China (last I checked).
I’m not sure I see a connection between the working conditions, and the quality of the car. I don’t think anyone is advocating for adopting those bad conditions, but they also seem unrelated to the quality of design, and parts that go into it. That purely seems like a question of paying for good high-quality parts, and not skimping out on the design phase.
but to everyone saying “we should just compete”, do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996?
I get what you are saying, but sometimes I think we should in a way, or at least we should get republicans exposed to it, so they can live their hogwash ideas of free markets.
It won't be them living the reality though, it will be their subordinates and employees. The same ones already being crushed to death by production metrics, stagnation of wages and inflation. The people involved in these decision making processes are too well shielded from the actual consequences, beyond maybe driving past and seeing the ruins of what used to be towns/cities/neighbourhoods destroyed by the free market and social policies.
Exactly, which is why I'm left scratching my head why the US wants to bring manufacturing back to the US. We're much better of growing the well-paying jobs where our education systems can compete favorably vs bringing back jobs that compete with low-paying jobs...
where our education systems can compete favorably
LOL are you sure about that?
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-highest-literacy-rates-in-the-world.html
China ranks higher than the USA in literacy rates
LOL losers, your education is shit compared to Chinese.
You've got nothing to offer to the world.
Well yes, but actually no. BYD has quite of an advantage (also because China subsidies it), but american (and also European) companies have no incentive to actually design good quality products if BYD gets left out. At the same time CEO will try (and currently do it) to force us into working more and more for less money with less benefits while swimming in billions of dollars.
So then why do so many US companies have the CSRs in places overseas ? And manufacturing overseas ?
Why did so many US companies decide to utilize those working conditions for labor for US companies ?
Have you heard of 996? It’s shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week
So a typical American teacher’s schedule?
BYD?
Giant chinese car manufacturer. They're the most popular PHEV Manufacturer in Australia and is rapidly growing in Europe.
The number 1 electric car company, they passed Tesla recently
Domestic US cars can't compete with foreign cars. We've known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Look no further than Kei trucks being illegal.
Our overengineered, over priced, unnecessarily complicated crap just can't compete with simple transport vehicles because they aren't made as a tool to serve a purpose. Everyone wants to make a Corolla into a Cadillac and sell it for Cadillac prices.
Hmmm. I think US cars can absolutely compete. Here is the problem. Foreign manufacturers make cars that people want to buy. American manufacturers make cars that they want to sell. These two things are not the same.
Domestic US cars can't compete with foreign cars. We've known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Growing up in the 90s in Wisconsin, all the conservatives around me always talked shit about foreign cars.
I can’t comprehend how they justified it. But I also knew nothing about cars.
It was only back in ~2016 that I realized how much building a car is similar to building a computer. Supply chains, common parts, designs made to fit common “cases”. Etc etc.
Maybe the USA should heavily invest in the industry of the USA, just like China does, in order to keep up? No, then USian companies would have oversight & have to meet expectations, and we all know that they wouldn’t want that.
That would require companies roll profits back into development and their employees instead of pocketing it all, schemes like stock buybacks and wall st traders.
Also labor price is unmatched. Nobody would work for the wage they give to children in China, so you can't really go that much cheaper while not sacrificing safety.
Not saying Chinese cars are that well made.
Very few children work in china right now, Chinese workers even have 5 days of vacation a year by law.
That's 5 more than the US....
There were probably more children working on farms in the US than in china, and I remember something about Florida wanting to reinstate child labour again?
Like we don't have child labor here in the good ol' USA.
They're being pretty ruthless about grabbing all the world's resources to make them as well.
That’s true, but we could subsidize the cost of labor too. People make a living wage, but the company pays less than that because government covers the difference.
China has compulsory education for children just like America. There's no child labor in China.
They pay adult workers less in China, but these yuan has 7x buying power than the dollar in China
Meanwhile, instead of trying to compete they cripple all EV advancement to make a quick buck on fossil fuel.
No shit, people want cheap, reliable transport and workers would want to build them, build and work on replacement parts, build batteries, etc. The only people supported by blocking BYD in the US are executives, shareholders, and the politicians they bought.
US is not a country, there is no strong federal power to choose direction.
US is like Poland before being divided, everything run by oligarchs and every oligarch just pulling for himself.
When Americans of all political stripes finally wake up to global realty, they'll most likely do it lying on a sidewalk, naked in the rain, with their fingers in their ears saying na-na-na-na-na-na...
People will eventually have to face that the economic golden age of the 1950s and 60s wasn't a normal state we can return to if greedy billionaires just let us. The rich definitely grabbed the biggest share of the prosperity, but that brief era of prosperity wasn't normal, it was entirely abnormal, and it's been over for quite a while. We've been fooling ourselves and keeping it going for the last half century by living on credit, and that's about to end. I don't know what new era is about to start, but the American era is over.
That might be true, but also a certain revolutionary purging of world politics would do a lot to return to something close to that. The golden age happened after the world war and decolonization, when western countries were full of veterans, and laws governing their lives were much simpler.
Internet-assisted direct democracy, open borders, open trade, radical changes in patent laws, simpler laws generally - all this can exist.
We simply have too much legacy everywhere strangling development.
The bad guys are trying to make it appear that the only legacy that can be stripped is that of French revolution ideals, human rights and civilization. That actually we don't have to strip, that is all good. Just them.
It's normal. Sometimes humans need surgeries, and sometimes a part of an old building has to be dismantled - maybe there's a pipe in the wall that leaks, or maybe you need to retrieve a human skeleton found using some new technology, whatever. And you throw out garbage regularly.
So a reform for direct democracy (with ranked choice between variants having, say, 1000+ initial supporters in some incubator to get to the vote itself, because we have computers, storage and connectivity to make everything desirable for such) IMHO would go a long way to fixing half the problems in the world.
We simply have too much legacy money everywhere strangling development.
I think that's the crux of it. Nobody with money to do big things is asking, "What does the world need?" They're always asking, "What can I convince the world it needs so it will give me even more money, and how can I retain exclusive rights to it?"
The human race absolutely has the capacity to turn the world into a wonderful, plentiful place for everybody, but those with the means of starting that are more motivated to acquire more and more for themselves, and most of the common people don't trust the world enough to entertain sweeping proposals because what if it's a trick or just doesn't work?
Only if they chose not to compete
Have you seen those byd cars on YouTube. Their mid price cars look like high end Mercedes over here. Meanwhile Ford and Chevy will sell you a $75000 pickup with all plastic interior.
None of the legacy companies are competing. Ever. The best we can hope for is rivian and other new players filling the gap.
I've test driven a few BYD models here in Australia. 50 thousand dollarydoos for an electric car that goes 400+km, can power your house in a blackout, has all the normal electric car performance (6 seconds to 100kmhr) and is chock full of user comforts and safety features.
There are a LOT of these getting around in Brisbane, and for good reason. I didn't get one this time round, but by the time the lease expires on my Volvo EX30 in 4 years, I'll be looking pretty hard at BYD. Especially if they get their new solid state batteries going by then.
The income stream would disappear, their operations would collapse and that would just be the end. There would not be another manufacturer that would flourish in the void left behind. Without the institutional know how and the existing structure, supply chain the current car manufacturing industry would never be able to restart if it ever stopped.
The social darwinism of the globalist free market is meant for crushing the spirit and bargaining power of individual workers, they are replaceable, disposable, interchangeable. General Motors and Ford aren't.
I think that's kind of the point. What the current case industry is doing is getting them smoked. They need to let go of the past the "institutional knowledge" that's exactly why Ford and Chevy won't compete with Chinese EV. Those are built from the ground up for the modern era with modern leadership modern supply chains building institutional knowledge that matters today and into the future. I would love nothing more than to drive a Ford EV. I am considering the f150 lightning but in comparison to things I see online it's really far behind.
BYD? Wait until you see the Xiaomi car LOL!
Because it's available to anyone. Not just Chinese owned companies and every other auto maker has similar taxes.
Sounds great, when do we start?
I hate that villains set our country's laws.
How does it compare to tesla in terms of privacy, ownership (DRM) and stuff?
Privacy in terms of a large, rolling chinese surveillance machine covered in cameras, mics and sensors, full of chips and sporting bluetooth, cellular and wifi? I'm sure it's fine.
That's fine.
I'd drive one
So Canada, how are they?
We can't buy Chinese EV's in Canada thanks to the 100% tariff imposed by the GoC. I wish they'd get rid of the tariff. Our cheapest EV option right now is the Fiat 500e and that starts at over $30,000.
I guarantee u US pressured Canada into not allowing byd
Bring Your Drink.
Good? Also is the american car sector not already dead from the us becoming a tariff issueing pariah state?
Well, this is where specific targetted protectionist policies can work, provided they are used just to buy time to catch up, deploy industrial policy, subsidies, to differentiate and for RnD and not just to bury your head in the sand and keep making expensive shit products.
Also, slave labor.
Lmao, Chinese shills are actual news now? Fucking low as it gets.
Whatever can be destroyed by the truth should be destroyed by the truth. (https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/03/13/destroy/)
Oh no! The type of capitalism where we have to compete!
Make it go away, Daddy Trump!
Sadly, I think it was Biden that put a 100% tariff on Chinese EVs. Fuck Trump, but come on, Biden, don't do this shit for them. I really like that new Xiaomi YU7.
The issue is not so simple. Blocking BYD has a lot to do with protecting American manufacturing jobs. That's not to say Biden's tariff was the right answer. But it is a more complicated problem to solve than it appears from the perspective of a single car buyer.
But the Chinese government could be spying on you if you bought a Chinese manufactured car!!
P.S. for bonus points, does anyone know where most GM automobiles are currently being manufactured?
Tbf notoriously China subsidizes BYD to net loss so its not exactly capitalism.
Did you forget all the bailouts US car manufacturers received?
All car manufacturers world wide are subsidized.
https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent-totals
Of course China can make cheaper cars, because most car manufacturers get their parts produced in China anyway.
What do you think Walmart does when they enter a new market, the eat losses till the local competition folds and they are the only option left
The US subsidizes farms and petroleum.
They phased out their subsidies in 2022
They still have a trade in program to get ICE vehicles off the road.
It's state sponsored capitalism and China has pumped a ton of money into BYD to get them to where they are.
I can see them giving larger tax breaks to companies in the US, but current administration is all in on tariffs as the way to increase our domestic production. It doesn't make ours any better or cheaper, just everything else more expensive.
So do a lot of other governments, to be fair. It's one of those industries that employs a lot of people, and it's always bad press to close it when a bit of money could have kept it. Certainly cheaper than putting thousands of people on benefits.
Plus there's subsidies for domestic sales as well. The UK at least had a grant for plug in cars that they ended a few years ago, presumably just to get the infrastructure up and running.
But then the new vehicle price is neither here nor there in the long term, since most people drive used vehicles anyway. What matters is how many vehicles trickle down to the masses, and whether wear on the battery is a concern. Some of the early smaller models didn't have great batteries to start with, but as a daily driver to the shops and work it'd probably be fine. For some reason the conversation always drifts over to "but what about that one time you drove across the state" or "remember that time you transported a fridge", as if that's something people can't work around for the once a year they do it.
fair game IMHO. if you look at china as one big agent, then they can indeed act like that.