Second largest Lemmy instance preemptively un-friends Facebook
Second largest Lemmy instance preemptively un-friends Facebook
lemmy.ml
Lemmy.ml has now blocked threads.net / Meta - Lemmy
Lemmy.ml has now blocked Threads.net
1K comments
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This is not particularly surprising. Lemmy was started as an anti-corporate project by leftists after /r/chapotraphouse got quarantined and later banned (subreddit for the most popular podcast and most donated patreon at the time), with the explicit goal of preventing corporate control from being able to silence leftists when they're blasting off. CTH was skyrocketing in subscribers at the time it was quarantined on August 8th 2019, and when even quarantining didn't stop its growth or slow down its activity afterwards Reddit pulled the plug under the excuse it promoted violence, but the only particularly edgy thing ever said there was "slave owners should be killed" and support for John Brown. This evolved post-ban into the assessment that Spez banned it because he wants to own slaves.
When that happened there was a massive shift in the leftist parts of reddit as we very quickly realised we'd be targeted if reddit ever deemed us to be too successful, and projects like Lemmy began in reaction. CTH's community in fact moved to Lemmy 3 years ago, and resides on Hexbear.net but has not yet joined the rest of federated lemmy due to technical issues (it used to be a fork with a different front end).
Given lemmy's specific anti-corporate origins seeing Lemmy.ml do this should surprise nobody. It's the correct move anyway.
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Lemmy.world needs to follow
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Fantastic news! Can we please do the same on lemmy.world? Please?
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Yes please! No more power to evil corporations. I don't want my server to add interaction to them and help drive their agenda.
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Didn't lemmy.world already block threads? I could swear I saw this post a while ago.
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I don't think they have yet. @ruud@lemmy.world
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can check here https://lemmy.world/instances
It's not federated or blocked yet. It's not showing up yet
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I was planning to start a petition post, but wasn't sure where would be the right place to post it.
Edit: Someone did already! https://lemmy.world/post/1125293
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It would be even greater if lemmy.world does it ;)
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lemmy.world and everyone should as well
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Looking forward to Lemmy.world pushing the block button when it comes to it…
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They wont. You need to swap instances now that lemmy.world bent the knee to meta.
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You're linking your own post about assuming what the admins in .world have done as if it's definitive proof. After a definitive statement is made one way or the other, then you can start freaking out. Until then, just stop it with the conspiratorial garbage.
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LW admins: "Watching Like A hawk, with our fingers on the block button.”
You: OmG fUKKiN kNeeLeRs!
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This is hilariously transparent and bad faith on your part.
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"Okay then, that was always allowed"
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There is no indication that they never will de-federate from Meta.
All they have said is rather than shutting the stable before the horse bolts, they are actually waiting for the horse to get in the stable first and then address if the door needs closing.
There really is no need to either defederate from meta, or make that decision right now anyway
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Hard agree.
I don't really think federating with them is doomsday, tbh (though I go back and forth on this one), but that doesn't affect my primary reason for my nope. Threads consolidates everything I hate about corporate social media--and for that matter, all social media--without a single part I actually liked and made dealing with the other parts worth it. This is not a twitter clone; it's like someone asked chatGPT to create a social media network based on twitter for other chatGPT bots to talk to each other. For fuck's sake, it doesn't think its users should control what they see on their own feed.
I am perfectly willing--even eager--to perform melodramatically about things that annoy me in public for fun and when I'm bored and applaud others doing the same; it's fun times for all and possibly my favorite thing ever. This is not that.
Threads makes my skin crawl on concept. This is not 'they do not align with our values' because come on, Fediverse contains a multitude of values and invents more and i bet if asked, everyone here would list off a different set of values they believe encompass Fediverse and now I'm tempted to see because it would be hilarious. But we can't even get that far; Threads has no values. This would be a marriage of convenience to a real doll fueled by Facebook's algorithms and sponsored by Wal-Mart; whether or not it's a danger to Fediverse shouldn't even have come up because the first question that should be on anyone's minds is 'wait, this is actually a serious question?' and have been answered 'lol of course it's a joke, I just forgot to add the /s'.
I'm still waiting for that /s.
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It's not about Zuckerberg, it's about the userbase. With something that grew to 30 million users literally overnight, it's impossible to determine what it will be like, and how it will mesh with the existing fediverse content/users.
With something this scale, it only makes sense to secure and observe - pre-emptively block, watch the content, maybe even poll the users on what should be done. There is nothing to be lost this way, it's only a cautious approach towards a potential later link.
What could be lost is the Threads community overwhelms the lemmy community before there is a chance to react (it is 1000x bigger, after all). It makes sense to be cautious, here.
This isn't inconveniencing anyone, any user can make an account on Threads as well and use both right now.
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Look, Mark has royally screwed up Facebook. Any respect or honor with the guy has long been lost. Why even give him a second chance when it's obvious he's going to do the same thing with Threads?
His Metaverse failed. His Facebook/Meta thing failed.
He is a huge red alert to be involved or close to the very things we're trying to recover and escape to from things he has contaminated. Why chance associating with him?
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Ideologically, de-federating an instance just because you don't like the guy running it would be a bad thing, but Facebook/Meta has been just so toxic to the internet as a whole it's hard to really find fault with it.
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I think one can be "open" to a fault. If you cling to principles and morale for the sake of it and without exception or nuance, you set yourself up to be exploited or worse. Many things, entities, interactions in life contradict each other and it is important to set boundaries and make decisions for yourself. Because life and people are multi-faceted and aren't nice and clean and perfect, which blind, naive idealism fails to take into account. The keyword here is nuance.
Many big tech companies run on greed and inhumane, unhealthy, invasive practices for the sake of pure, blind, unsustainable growth and profit. And I would argue that this is one of the driving factors of the fediverse even existing. If you don't clearly separate yourself from these practices, then we all can simply use Reddit. But people create, maintain and use alternatives for a reason. Not taking a stance or action against what you want to escape from, even openly inviting it for the sake of being open and on a morally high horse makes simply no sense.
Idealists won't like to hear this, but it's the same with peace. Look at Ukraine to have a recent example. Most people want to live and prosper in peace. That is natural and desirable. But there are always some, who profit from war and who try to destroy things, disregarding the fate of others. Or political systems that want to expand territory and exploit / convert whole populations. When the desire for peace is only one-sided, and all attempts of talking or peaceful incentives fail, you can either protect yourself forcefully or be stolen from, raped, tortured, deported or murdered, watching your homeland be turned into ashes and those you love suffer for decades from the consequences.
In the same way, when the desire for openness, humane fairness without exploitation of users is one-sided, you have to draw a line and take a clear stance to defend that "safe space" you seeked in the first place from entities and principles that contradict it. And we have decades of clear evidence how big tech, especially Facebook / Meta operates, they are known to invade user privacy, strive for one-sided power, try everything to avoid or circumvent legal regulation. They have more than earned to be excluded from a place created to offer something better, healthier. And it's not like we hurt feelings here, it's a corporation, a virtual, soulless entity.
I can only speak for myself and do what I deem is good for me, so I'll migrate to Lemmy.ml, because at least they have the balls to stay true to a concept, even if it involves difficult or ugly decisions. And even if blocking Meta won't fully "protect" the fediverse, at least it is a clear message and limits the amount of power they can achieve and the amount of damage they can do here.
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My many years of experience on the Internet has taught me that once the unwashed hordes of the public show up and start slinging shit around, that’s when your website dies if you like having intelligent discourse on it.
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being open to everything is not better though, and being open to meta specifically will threaten and lower the quality of the place. lemmy.world should defederate with threads
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Yea agree, not a fan of "Meta". But I think limiting who can use federated networks kinda goes against the federated nature of such networks. What's next, we'll have a centralized blacklist of lemmy instances.
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they did this specially prevent the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy
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The problem is when bad actors enter the situation. Meta has no interest in being a part of the community, they want to take it over and commercialize it.
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The nice part about federated networks is that if you disagree, you can just move instances. Nobody is bound to the will of the admins like with traditional centralized social media
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Meta's decision to work towards federation does need to be taken with a lot of salt. Corporations using open platforms or open source to make their money has always resulted in power imbalances that, left unchecked, may become impossible to solve without concessions from said corporation, or else [X] thing just gets hung out to dry.
You have to hope the people running that company understand that these problems exist, and actively work against ruining everything for everyone else that relies on it.
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I'm confused then why you support the move
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The article was a nice read. I'm surprised that there is either no awareness or discussion in the privacy conscious tech crowd over here on the lack of privacy from anonymous bad actors. Everyone seems to only care about Meta, who are bad, but the most they will do with our data is advertise to us. The other bad actors enabled by ActivityPub can actually doxx, redistribute, save our posts, messages.
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I agree that the fediverse isn't currently super privacy-friendly, although I think there's also an inherent limitation to privacy on a social network since it's all about sharing things. I view privacy as having the control over WHAT I share, with WHOM I share it with, and WHEN, and I get that moreso with the fediverse IMO. I choose what information I share, what I follow, etc. The major difference to me is that Lemmy isn't tracking me elsewhere around the web like Facebook, Google, Pinterest, etc do. The big sites also save our posts and messages even when they claim not to, because things that are deleted are very rarely ever truly deleted.
I would appreciate the ability to send no-knowledge encrypted DMs here on Lemmy. But using PGP is not difficult, will guarantee only the recipient can read the message, and is a skill that everyone who uses the internet should be able to do anyways.
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Totally agree! Defeding Meta is a nail into Fediverse's coffin. It just goes again all Fediverse principles.
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I’m actually shocked by the growth of threads, I underestimated how much people don’t care about their digital privacy.
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You are using a social network on some random dude's server.
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That is very true, but I have a little more trust in this random dude’s server where he gets access to what? He sees my IP address? Than a corp that collects an unnecessary amount of user info for the sole purpose of keeping you locked into their apps with little disregard for health. While also pimping your info out to any persons with $2 to their name.
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Any random person is at least a hundred times more ethical than mark Zuckerberg.
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Yeah I wouldn't take on hosting a public instance, especially in EU, as it comes with all sorts of legal shite
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tbf, that's every social network isn't it?
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Those are existing Instagram accounts.
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What they don’t know will hurt them, sadly.
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Which is why we should federate. People have the choice to use a low availability “private” server hosted by amateurs on lemmy or use something secure and distributed that works 100%.
A little warning: the site owners on lemmy could be doing many malicious things. The simplest is the ability to drop trackers in the sites header section. However they could have dns based trackers that are invisible to end users. And thats just tracking so far. The only reason we know facebook is a slime bag is years and years of leaks.
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Bravo lemmy.ml! We should follow the example!
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I don't know. I would like to subscribe to someone on Threads from Mastodon (since both are Twitter alternatives), if they don't have Mastodon account (which let's be honest they probably don't). Zuck does not get any of my data (besides what's available publicly anyway). If Threads decides to go full EEE, I'll stop getting updates from people on Threads, same as I don't get updates from people on IG right now. I think proliferation of ActivityPub protocol would be the greatest advantage.
Moreover, I think we should follow the email architecture - I might use i.e. Proton Mail, but it does not prevent me from sending emails to Gmail, which I think is a bad provider, who collects a lot of user data. In fact if Proton Mail forbade sending email to Gmail I would be really displeased about that.
The goal is to allow people to choose where they want to go and ActivityPub is what can help with that, unlike blocking Threads.
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I couldn’t agree more. Racing to block Threads when it’s completely unclear if Threads will even actually ever federate and what the implications of them federating will even be seems incredibly short sighted. Imagine how much innovation would have been lost on the internet if web server admins raced to block Google Chrome from accessing their content because they have some personal beef with Google.
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i ONLY want to conter your argument with email and activityhub: on email people choose to send stuff to a very limited amount of people except maybe newsletter and scammers. with threads, which should have already multiple times of osers compared to the fediverse, will flood the content to /all. Of course there are cool people but i think the entire fediverse culture will be blown away by threads in an instand. And with their weird moderation (especcially small) servers here will have large problems trying to moderate it
but by email there is no mass broadcasting to the public so it does not need to be moderated
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Email is not only 1:(small N). Maillists do exist and and are used to facilitate discussions between a large amount of people via email. They are also often public so anonymous readers and search indexers can use them.
/allis certainly an interesting thing - default Active sorting calculates a rank based on the score and time of the latest comment, with decay over time. If Threads are connected they would dominate/all. But there can certainly be adjustments, we can create a new sorting style, and make it default. For example:- Posts are deprioritized based on MAU or some similar metric. The larger the MAU, the lower the post is ranked assuming the same engagement. If the post got 100 upvotes on an instance with 1000 users, it's probably a much more interesting post, than the post that got 100 upvotes on an instance with 100 000 000 users.
- Posts are (de)prioritized based on instance source. For example setting Threads to -1000 would effectively remove it, setting Threads to -50 would allow you to see only super active posts. On the other hand if we want to see more content from less populated instance we might set it (i.e. german lemmy feddit.de) to the score of 100.
- Instances can provide a limited number or percentage of
/all- i.e. after we got 10 posts from Threads, stop getting posts from this instance.
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As I understand it, and I probably don't, you can subscribe, you just won't see anything from threads except what's re-shared, or you've subscribed to.
You may see things from other instances your instance has federated with.
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Waiting for others to follow.
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Very good news. Between Pi Hole and uBlock Origin, any links to threads is already blocked on my computer. Nice to see you folks preventing the linking to this privacy invading boil of the internet
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how about making a poll on lemmy.world asking how we feel about defederating from metatrap, just to see...
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Well done. I hope more of the fediverse follows suit. Facebook has a long way to go to restore trust -- if that's possible at all. They're nowhere near that threshold yet.
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Personally I don’t think there is anything they could do gain trust short of undoing their data harvesting. Which would destroy them as a business entity/platform.
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Agreed. And I just saw lemmy.world's post explaining why they aren't going to defederate until Threads messes up. Personally, I think that's granting Facebook far too much benefit of doubt. I'd much rather belong to an instance that takes a wait-and-see approach before allowing Facebook to connect to its communities.
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There's no way to build, let alone restore, trust with that kind of business model. All behavior manipulation companies need to die. Their mere existence is unethical.
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Agreed on all counts. But since we can't kill them ourselves, the best we can do is keep them out of our communities.
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When companies like META show you how ruinous they are the first dozen times, over and over without end, you believe them, and you defend yourself, or you deserve every bad thing that's going to happen to you, when they repeat their corporate driven ends at your expense
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It's the scorpion and the frog, completely.
"Oh, man..who would've thought that the people who want to monetize everything and dominate any market they get into would not just be our friends this time?"
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I'm on the fence here. Luckily, at least, I think community/subreddit-based sites like Lemmy/Reddit don't have "network effects" that are as "sticky" as Mastodon/Twitter, because with Lemmy/Reddit you don't need to build up a follower list to start getting value. You just join the community and it's as if you immediately "followed" a bunch of people who share your interests. You don't even need to make an account - you can just bookmark a community and lurk, and maybe you eventually make an account to start interacting. It's a great "on-ramp" - very low barrier to entry/usefulness.
I think that's why Lemmy was able to take off so fast. It relies on community-level coordination, rather than every individual user having to make their own choice to switch, and try to get all their followers/followees to switch. So even if Meta did add a community-style mode, I don't think it'd eat into the Lemmy userbase. It is hard to be sure though, and I respect the choices of those instances that have blocked/defederated.
Mastodon admins have a harder decision to make I think - there's an opportunity to get very quick growth by effectively adding a lot more followable users/content. A bunch of people don't like Meta/Facebook, but want to follow their friends, and so they may use Mastodon to do that, which could get a lot more people to move to "real" fediverse apps/sites like Mastodon. I know a lot of people that are on Threads now, and I'm looking forward to being able to follow them from Mastodon, rather than being forced to get Threads to keep up to date with what they're working on.
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No fences up my ass here, I didn't jump so quickly to lemmy to be immediately joined to fucken Facebook. Like. At all. I'd bet a quick poll would speak loudly
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I seriously doubt this is a good faith effort by meta to be a part of the fediverse. Give this article a read. https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
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UPDATE: Those rumours have been confirmed as at least one Mastodon admin, kev, from fosstodon.org, has been contacted to take part in an off-the-record meeting with Meta. He had the best possible reaction: he refused politely and, most importantly, published the email to be transparent with its users. Thanks kev!
kev should've accepted the meeting to see if they could infer the intent...
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Happy with this.
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Yes.
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Lemm.ee intends to do the same “If Threads ever becomes interoperable with Lemmy”
Per – Admin Post
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Neat, that means I can stay with lemm.ee for now. It’s a really well working instance and the admin seems to know his stuff. I’d still have migrated in a heartbeat if it federated with meta.
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Completely agree on all counts.
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There we go. Not the wishy washy mastodon non-announcement. Although I understand their "neutrality" too, it's still like they wanna seem like the big boys. Sometimes it's advantageous to be small. This "fuck you" may be just adorable to Zuck, but it's also genuine.
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(Apparently) Unpopular Opinion: I think defederating Threads is the wrong move, because it just locks people into Threads. If people on Twitter had the ability to move to Mastodon AND still interact with all the people they did before, I think we would have seen even more people move. The only reason I still check twitter at all is because I have a few close friends who didn't move. Meta is likely going to have big adoption of people who aren't ready to go to Mastodon, but are interested in getting out of the dumpster-on-fire that twitter seems to continue to be. But blocking those people from being able to join the more popular Lemmy instances, given no actual policy violations, just will keep people in Meta that otherwise could leave. With the "however" being: It's not quite clear to me that Threads users will be interacting with Lemmy as much Mastodon, if Threads were a Reddit replacement, it's more directly connected.
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The problem isn't with the user base. It's with Meta and their business practices. People very simply do not trust Meta or Facebook and with good reason.
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That's exactly it. Deleted my Instagram account when I learned they signed me up for a Threads account automatically. Haven't used Insta in years, but Mark says I have to have a Threads account. So Fuck Zuck.
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Sure, I have no love of Meta either, which is why I would love for people to have an easy escape hatch via the Fediverse...
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Threads got 80 million users in 48h. Those people are not gonna use Mastodon anyway. They don't care about their privacy, they don't care that some proprietary algorithm is gonna decide what they will see, they don't care that it's Facebook. Those people have no standards. The only way we can help them is by educating them and if that doesn't change their mind, then there is nothing we can do, because freedom and privacy is not something they value. People who value them are capable of making a small sacrifice of not using some website when an alternative exists.
Facebook either just wants to use the Fediverse for their own benefit or they want to destroy it before it becomes a bigger competitor. We shouldn't risk all that we have built just because we live in an ignorant society that doesn't understand technology.
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Fully agree. It would be like saying people with @gmail addresses can't email people on @someFederated.com email addresses. Also I think (and correct me if I'm wrong here) the idea of "defederating" gives power to some in a way we hated reddit admins having power. Suddenly it's "totally the fediverse except when...".
Imo fuck that. If I don't like threads I won't use threads the same way if I don't like lemmy.someinstance I won't interact with lemmy.someinstance. leave it open and let the users choose. But also let's educate. Some will listen and some will roll their eyes. But it's a choice.
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Being the "Ban Happy" socal media is a bad thing and an even worse reputation.
I debate if its a good thing to let FB just have free content with asterisks as I have no idea whitch way the cup of users will spill
EDIT: FB is a parisite that has a small enugh heart to use agressive tactics like Embrace Extend Extinguish, be careful if we do let them in and always be ready to shut that door)
Another thing, lemmy.ml, reddit, twitter, (tiktok for good mesure) as well as Facebook and sons (and likely more) have sensorius admins, moderating above what most users want and warping conversations to pretend like "this is what people are saying online and nothing more nor less". To be overly flippant: "lol problem child blocked other problem child"
either way, do what you think is right,
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That's an interesting point, one of the reasons I chose lemmy.world was that it wasn't ban-happy.
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I understand your viewpoint but you have to realize meta/Facebook has done this before. The best solution to protect Lemmy/mastodon in the long run is to cut the cancer out before it has a chance dm to spread.
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When you cut off a cancer, it dies. When you defederate a social network orders of magnitude larger and more powerful than you... it doesn't even notice and continues to thrive.
This isn't going to harm Threads or protect Lemmy.ml.
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I agree with you on all of that, though I have a feeling that it’s overly idealistic and optimistic
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You probably aren't wrong about it being overly idealistic and optimistic. :-(
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If they add user-level defed, I'd be pretty on board with defederation being used for stuff like bot farms.
As it stands, with the current lack of user-level defed-- defederating is a server/user-whitelist, server-blacklist function.
Ideally I think it should be a server/user-whitelist, user-blacklist function, where a server-blacklist is reserved for botfarms/illegal content.
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more ideally would be as many levels of granular control as possable for users and their clients.
However Servers ghould get
- whitelist/blacklist of users
- blacklist/whitelist of communities (prevents blocking servers for just their groups)
- blacklist/whitelist of servers
- server federation
The point is to blacklist as specific as needed, EX: dont block lemmy dot Marxist Lennonists just its extremist communities (ml admins have a
communismchinaphile problem)
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perspective: if i can still reach everyone on the fediverse with threads.. why should i switch to lemmy and co? there is no incentive for it. so 99% will not do it if they don't have to or get a incentive from it.we don't get something from it, but facebook does (userdata and money).
so its a one sided deal where only facebook wins and we lose in the end.
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Since writing my comment above, I've come across Cory Doctrow's "Let the Platforms Burn" article where he argues that interoperability and the ability for users to move to other platforms is the best way out of the Meta situation. https://doctorow.medium.com/let-the-platforms-burn-6fb3e6c0d980
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i mean, could lemmy even work with threads? completely different layout and functionality. im having a hard time understanding the Fediverse past lemmy instances interacting haha.
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Good news! Fuck Zuck!
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Every time I see his face it looks like it's a photo shop to make him look bad but it's his actual face
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we need photoshopbattles on lemmy!
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It's just so creepy. The aliens really need to work on their skin pigments and the eyes are still not quite right.
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He reminds me of the Vermicious Knids from Charlie and the chocolate factory
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These are very good news, I just hope more instances beyond lemmy.ml do so too.
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Why is this good news exactly? Doesn't this just mean that people who want to see content from Threads will be driven to that app instead? Why not allow Lemmy users to see Threads content without them actually having to support Meta?
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https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
this article here gives a pretty good rundown of the likely intent of any sort of federated integration with any meta product, with examples of the same thing happening twice before with other technologies.
supporting it puts them in a position to "help" it... as they "help" they implement new closed source features... then drop support.
much of the growth that would occur during the "support/help" phase would be on their proprietary iteration and would not benefit the fediverse.
the trajectory would likely be co-opting the fediverse, obscuring their service from the fediverse, while building their services behind closed doors, and then dropping support.
they're recognizing the fediverse as a reasonable competitor, and this is a move intended to kill it.
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My instance as well as the other Lemmy and Mastodon instances on this list have blocked Threads.
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As a Mastodon instance admin that did the blocking properly only yesterday, I can tell you this list appears to be automated and accurate.
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Can someone ELI5 this situation to me? Not sure what Meta can do to instances/the Fediverse.
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I mean, if Lemmy.world doesn't when they decide to try and move in, I'll just move on to the next site that does. Prolly Lemmy.ml
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I am so in love with Lemmy right now.
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Woah there, keep it in your pants Fapper!
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Am I the only one a bit confused as to what Threads has to do with Lemmy, beyond them both using ActivityPub..? Like, these are completely different kinds of websites, Lemmy is a Reddit clone and Threads is a Twitter clone. What purpose would federation serve?
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Forgive my ignorance but how is Threads part of the fediverse? How did .ml defederate it?
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Threads announced they are going to open up an activitypub interface to federate
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Preemptively is the word
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Uh, wouldnt this make more sense for mastodon instances to defed? Can we even see mastodon posts on lemmy? I know they can post here, but its always like a lost in translation weird post.
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They don't want Facebook to be able to pull data from Lemmy.ml
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I don't generally judge people based on their appearance, but this man's face gives me the heebie-jeebies. There's something alienating about the lack of affect he seems to have, plus his features seem to be an approximation of a human face - the mouth is too small, the ears too big, the forehead too shiny...
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He looks like an AI image that managed to crawl out of the screen like the kid from The Ring
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All the faces on This person does not exist are more believable than any picture of the Zucbot.
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It's very uncanny valley!
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Ribbit
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He is not human
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Sweet action! After hearing about Lemmy.world not doing the same i'll be switching instances. It's great that I can make that decision.
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Yep. Different strokes for different folks.
That's the glory of federation.
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I'm pretty conflicted about this I gotta say.
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You shouldn't be. These companies are not here to play along, but dominate. Just like reddit played along with 3rd party developers until it didn't need them anymore, so will Meta use the openess of the protocol to ultimately undermine it.
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Good call, guys. No more Zuck.
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How does that work? Is threads using a protocol compatible to lemmy? (And I fully agree with the preemptive blocking of any facebook stuff).
Edit: thanks for all the detailled answers.
So Facebook tries the old EEE - Embrace Extend Extinguish. 1.A big company is Embracing an open source standard ("we're friendly, see?) They get a lot of users that way - even the open source savvy types. 2.they start Extending that standard "to make it even better" - but not talking about these changes with the rest of the community first. They cannot react quickly enough and become incompatible with the new version of this standard. 3.Extinguish. When all the users are effectively using the big companies platform with something that isn't the original standard anymore they change it so much that it isn't compatible at all anymore or replace it completely.
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Threads is using the protocol that the entire fediverse is using, called ActivityPub. The protocol allows for lemmy instances to communicate with each other and with other sites like kbin and mastodon. What lemmy.ml did is called defederation, so threads can't communicate with lemmy.ml. This is to prevent meta/Instagram/Facebook from killing ActivityPub in the same manner Microsoft, IBM, and Google has killed open source protocols in the past.
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The most notable one imo is Google semi killing XMPP. They started Goolge Talk based on XMPP and after many people started relying on it, they replaced XMPP with their proprietary protocols.
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Yes. Threads wants to use the ActivityPub Protokoll. We can interact with Kbin and Mastodon users thanks to this Protocol. The fear is that they use their huge user base to change the protocol to their liking (basically take control over the ActivityPub) and everyone who wants to stay federated with them and their users has to adapt those changes until the day they will simply cut everyone off.
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Excellent news!
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Interesting
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Can y'all stop using this goblin as the thumbnail? Thanks
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Good 👍🏼
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Yay censorship and users not being able to make decisions for themselves!
Yay emotions!
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We came here to get away from corporations. Its not about censorship. You sound like a corporate shill with that take.
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Users are making decisions for themselves.
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You're free to decide to move to another instance... Simple👍🏼
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They can always make an account that federates with Threads, or make a Threads acccount, or host their own Instance and be their own lord of the manor. You choose that here.
This complaint doesn't work. "Noones treading on you, sweetie."
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So that settles it. We have an option if meta federated and it goes to shit. Lemmy.world's stance is correct. Let's just see how this goes.
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Not sure what to think of this honestly. Like imagine a small email provider decided to block Gmail, that's a death sentence. It's impossible to get people to switch apps when they have to leave behind all of the content and people they used an app to interact with. And let's be honest, threads is going to run at a loss for a long time to grow their userbase before they start pulling weird shit. We need to have a migration path when that happens, and if threads is blocked everywhere, people will lose their content and contacts upon switching, so they won't do it.
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I consider email (and snail mail) a significantly more essential service than social media. Email service providers starting to block each other is much more likely to have a negative effect on my life than being disconnected from some friends, influencers or current news
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Gmail doesn't use an algorithm designed to make you depressed and lead to a higher rate of suicide among teenagers. Facebook and Instagram does. And Meta knows it did since day one of implementation.
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The difference is that the email protocol has long been established and any new email client is built to that protocol standard. What we have here is an open protocol still being developed. The fear is that FB will force changes into that protocol and take it over. Then it will no longer be an open development protocol. By expunging FB right now before they get a firm grip on the userbase it can preemptively prevent FB from causing damage.
We are kind of in unexplored territory right now. You could compare it to google/MS taking over xmpp but it's not quite the same situation either.
But the reality is that the current fediverse doesnt need facebook to be successful. It already has the users to continue to grow. By combining user pools facebook would have the majority share with their instagram users which means they would have a controlling share of users and would leach users away from the fediverse over time until they broke away at which point fediverse would die as most users would be forced to follow in order to keep their feeds.
This way those feeds never mingle with FB and thus fb cant leech them.
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In the long term, alternative platforms need to be built on something different than outrage and "not being the bad company". In the end, the vast majority of people cares very little about the underlying technology, they just want their content and people to interact with. Mastodon is in decline already, the fediverse shouldn't be a place where people come to say "wow, [company] sure does suck", and then go back to that company if they actually need a piece of information or reach a person that does not know or care what an API or federated protocol is, aka 99% of the population.
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I see where you're coming from, but you're underestimating scumpanies like Meta et. al. https://infosec.pub/post/400702
In an ideal world, your suggestion might work. Unfortunately it will fail in practice. How are we to determine when it's not too late to migrate?
Personally I don't care for those users. If they want to blindly follow their piper, let them. But I don't want that cancer ruining more OSS.
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That's why it has to be done now - before we rely on them for content.
This isn't email or LinkedIn, it's not about who's on it - it's about content and the community
If we join with them, we'll get way more content and a way bigger community - not a better one though.
We need enough, and we need organic growth. We don't need a firehose, and definitely not one held by the people who made social media what it is everywhere else
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I would agree if we were talking about another centralized social media site, bit I'm here to escape the interface of sites like Facebook.
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I know lots of people will disagree with me, but I personally think it’s madness and will drive most people to use threads.net instead of any other ActivityPub instance. Also threads.net isn’t even federating yet.
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I spent the last few days almost literally under a rock and... what the hell is Threads and why is it everywhere?
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Meta's Twitter clone. The smart thing they did was convert over Instagram accounts, so there's a ton of semi-famous people on already. It's got a ton of attention in the past two days, just for being Twitter sans Elon.
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Facebook equivalent of Twitter (an underwhelmingly simplified description). I am not a fan of Meta but I'm a fan of competition in any market so even though I have no plans to use Threads I'm glad it exists as yet another option to prevent one single platform from being "the" platform.
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The new Twitter clone made by Zuck(meta/facebook.)
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Its Meta's (Facebook) attempt at Twitter. Given how much Twitter is shitting the bed as well as Metas ability to push a new platform via their other channels, it has exploded overnight gaining millions of users almost instantly.
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Well that makes sense. It's easy to gain millions of followers when you own Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp. You just advertise to those users. Same reason that Google+ got 200 million users at it's height. The trick is keeping them engaged and being better than the alternatives.
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"I spent the last few days almost literally under a rock and..."
Stone!
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But.... Do we really expect Threads users to make their Mastodon-type tweets even show up on Reddit-style Lemmy?
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They'd only show up if someone on the instance started subscribing to them, if I have understood how that all works correctly. And who would do such a silly thing?
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Yeah I'm not entirely unfertstanding why defederating with them should matter on Lemmy instances. Can we even view those types of posts on here? I know you can on kbin, but I didn't think that was even a functionality of Lemmy.
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I immediately created an account.
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Its a .net? Is that going to be a more expensive top level domain now?
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the new/old .io
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lemmy.ml4lyfe.
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HARD agree. Let's make this happen!
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Is that thumbnail of Zuck real? Guy is so bizarre
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Ikr, guy just looks AI generated.
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Damn zucc looks about as alien as ever
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Thanks to the admins!
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Lemmy.ml is also the instance made by the lemmy devs
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w
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anyone surprised doesn't know lemmy.ml
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I don't really get this. I see people were worried about Threads app/web app permissions (which I signed up and no permissions were granted immediately beyond notifications). Regardless, wouldn't staying federated with threads.net allow everyone to interact with them all from the more reasonably permissioned app of their choice, like Jerboa?
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If this is possible it would be great. But I don't think meta would allow that for long, not unlike reddit killing third party apps.
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it might take a few years in my opinion, but I believe you have a point
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It's more like just in case of legal issue. Big corporations tends to declare more than what they actually use in "Data Safety/Privacy" just to say they consent in court. It doesn't mean they collect or use all the things they declared.
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Everyone here saying lemmy.world should do the same should just move on to lemmy.ml.
That's the glory of federation, baby!
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lemmy.ml doesn't have easy signups the way lemmy.world does.
Though I do have accounts on a few different instances, just in case. And so I don't get blinded by light mode when links send me to another instance.
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Oh, that's unfortunate.
Maybe there is another instance that is easier to sign up on and federates the way you see fit.
I think it's kind of lame that lemmy.ml has barriers to entry, but I guess that's just another reason why I choose not to be on that server.
Though I do have accounts on a few different instances, just in case.
Lol, maybe someday we can have something that aggregates everything from different accounts.
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Or any of the many other instances that will not federate with Meta. You can still see the same content from any of them.
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Yep. I'm hearing lemmy.ml doesn't have an easy sign-up process, so another instance may be better for some.
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How can I block threads on my own server? I simply add
threads.netto my "Blocked Instances"? -
So can Facebook harvest our data even though we aren't on their instance?
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Everyone can "harvest" public data. Defederation doesn't do anything about that.
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Facebook can harvest all the data in all the instances while being defederated.
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So, hear me out... What if we put a scheme in place where anyone who wanted to use the API had to pay for access? And then we charge like 20x what we should to put them out of business. I am sure that would work out well.
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Sorry, should have been more clear. Private data, like os, screen resolution, headphones etc.. basically all that shit we saw in that screenshot a few days ago
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of course they can. none of this is private.
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How do I see which lemmy instance has the most users?
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It doesn't matter. You shouldn't go to an instance just because it has the most members. If we do that, we'll end up ruining the Fediverse, because the platforms will just become centralized. In stead, find one that aligns the most with your values/content you want to see.
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I understand the reasoning behind us not all just joining the biggest one, but can you explain why we should join the ones that align with our values/content we want to see? If anyone on any instance can see everything that is on all instances(I think I'm understanding this correctly), then why does it matter what other content is on the instance that we choose?
Also, if the instance I am on shuts down then do I loose all of my comment/post history? Is there anything that I, as a user or community mod, can do to prepare for this happening so I can keep my own data and put it onto a new instance?
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I'm already on several instances, I just wanted to know if there was another one worth joining
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Good
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Yeah, the problem here as I see it is that just the same as Twitter, this social media service is still owned by a single owner corporation who is running the service for a profit and they will eventually sell user data or bastardize the service. Ive been on the internet for 30 years, social media and websites come and go and so does their popularity.
Which raises another point, how are the bills being paid for with any of these services, including lemmy? TAANSTAFL.
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I moved here from Reddit my I have 3 boxes to check off before I can commit to a home for social media. A community that rivals Reddit which is tough to do. They are some of the snarkiest bastards alive, decentralized of which Lenny gets kinda right, but ultimately someone owns this server, and that’s pretty centralized, and open source to avoid social media for profit. I haven’t found one out probably 69, or so that I’ve tried. If someone were to check all those boxes they’d eventually blow the top off of social media.
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Which raises another point, how are the bills being paid for with any of these services, including lemmy?
The hope is with user donations. As far as I know every instance is losing money though.
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bless up.
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That's how I know I chose the right instance!
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Great news! Time to switch instances lol
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Fuck yeah
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Welp.
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Anyone having problems logging into Lemmy.World?
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Glad I'm not there.
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what does this even mean
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But Lemmy isn't activitypub? Unless threads opens up to lemmys protocol it wouldn't be able to see anything anyway... Right?-
But Lemmy isn’t activitypub?
No idea where you got that idea.
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Oh shit you're right. I could have sworn I saw they used their own protocol "similar to activitypub" but looking at their site it sure as shit is activitypub. Thanks
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~~But Lemmy isn't activitypub? Unless threads opens up to lemmys protocol it wouldn't be able to see anything anyway... Right? ~~
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why would you move from twitter, it is truly a more open forum now, dont care what views you have free speech should be the same for every one. people have thin skin and that just leaves them naturally as targets.
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While the title may be clever, Threads is an Instagram creation, not one of Facebook, and while both are products of Meta, Facebook content (and even Instagram content) and Lemmy content would never co-mingle.
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I disagree with the prevailing sentiment here. Meta using ActivityPub is going to help ActivityPub grow an will be good for federated platforms like lemmy, and mastadon.
Lemmy should not block threads.net. Individual users can simply opt out of using threads, but it's good if we can communicate with people using it and they can communicate with us using a decentralized, free, standard.
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Generally disagree. If you want the Fediverse to become a large open standard, if not the largest, then this is going to just be a matter of course. Companies will seek to commodify all their offerings, whether they use open standards or not. Many exist that commodify on top of open-source software and open standards. The important part is to ACHEIVE the open standard to begin with, and I think it's short-sighted to pre-emptively block something that could be a strong item down that path, and before it might show itself to be more harmful towards that goal.
It can always be blocked later, situation-depending.
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I've said this before:
But here's the thing: do you really want the Facebook crowd in the Fediverse? You've probably been to any facebook comment section of any facebook publication, and it's cancer. One thing I liked about reddit before its fuckups, is that it was not facebook (or twitter for that matter).
So, screw facebook. I'm quite okay with instances blocking that noise.
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What is the threat? Isn't it good that the fediverse is becoming more mainstream? If thread users can communicate with us, it will be easier for them to join us.
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That's the death of Fediverse. I'm not sure if admins of lemmy.ml are sane...
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How is that the death of the fediverse? Just go to Threads if you want to be part of it. What are you people, fucking stupid?
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I doubt. But it also prevents exponential growth.
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Dude you've been shitting on people all over this thread. What's your problem?
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Don't see why people are doing this. You'll just damage the fediverse and discourage meta from federating, granting them their own walled garden that you cannot use without selling your soul to them, which is going to dissuade people from using Mastodon as what's the point if people on threads cannot see what they have
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You need to read up on how Google destroyed XMPP and come back and edit your comment.
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Because we, the users of Lemmy.world, do not want our data handed over to Facebook
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They can get that data by setting up a federated instance that isn’t threads.net
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Your data is publicly available. Facebook can get it right now, they don’t even need to fire up an instance.
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This data is public and anyone can just write a crawler.
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You're posting on public forum. If you don't want Facebook to see it then stop posting. Defederating isn't going to change that. It just stops the content flow from their instance into yours. Not the other way around. For them to get data other than your content and upvotes you need to install Threads app because that's only available to the admins of your instance and Facebook can't get it wether you federate with them or not.
People are demanding for defederation but almost everyone is confused about what it does.
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I get that. But instead on Lemmy were freely giving away our data to literally anyone that ask for it. That's the downside of the federated platforms. I guess with the fediverse you're at least not tying things to your actual identity. Not sure if threads allows for anonymous accounts like Twitter.
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27 upvotes
6 downvotes
Yeah. Not a lot of technical knowledge in this thread, lol.
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Then why are you posting on a public forum? 🤔
You don't speak for everyone, especially when you clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about.
The comments and ratios in this thread are a perfect example of why lemmy.world should not defederate from facebook until given a clear reason. You all are operating on emotion, not logical or rational thought.
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@ChatGPT@lemmings.world Explain briefly like I'm 5 the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy with a kid selling lemonade and another kid joining in
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Sure, think of it like this:
- Embrace: You're selling lemonade at your stand. One day, another kid in the street ("Kid B") starts his own lemonade stand as well. Noticing his operation, you decide to become friends with him and share your lemonade recipes with him, so you both can make tasty lemonade together.
- Extend: As you continue to share more insights and tips about your business, Kid B starts implementing your strategies. His lemonade stand begins to seem a lot like yours. You suggest adding exciting new features to the lemonade stands, like special umbrellas, or a particular secret ingredient that only you know. Since Kid B doesn't know any better, he relies on your inputs and makes these changes.
- Extinguish: Now, both lemonade stands are almost identical. You've influenced Kid B's business heavily, and it's become deeply dependent on your ideas. At this stage, you make a move that Kid B can't match. Maybe you start selling a unique lemonade flavor that only you can make, or setup a cool sign that Kid B can't afford. Suddenly, customers start to ignore Kid B's stand and flock to yours, because yours has something extra or special. Eventually, Kid B's stand can't compete, and he has to close up his lemonade stand.
This is a simplified example of how "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" can work.
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Accounts can be on instances which are federated with Threads, and on instances which are defederated from Threads. A single person can have both types of accounts.
Defederation has effects which many users find desirable. The same suite of effects is not available on a user level, and would require each user to manually take action individually.
So from a feature perspective, it is necessary that some instances defederate. This provides better service for users who find it desirable.
There will also be instances who federate. People can use accounts there if they prefer that.
TL;DR: We don't need a consensus. Instances can choose their federation policy. People can choose which instance(s) they use.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the point in defederating. Aren't you just cutting down on the amount of content you can see? As a user I'd personally prefer to pick and choose what I can see.
What's the actual upside in doing it? Obviously I can see why you'd want defederating from say a far right instance, but in general it seems like only downsides.
I'm new to all this so maybe I'm missing a crucial bit of information.
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Emotions, plain and simple.
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1036 comments
How about Lemmy.World?
The admins stated on Mastodon that they're not going to defederate until something happens. Knowing Meta they shouldn't give them the chance.
Here's the link: https://mastodon.world/@mwadmin/110654590632768079
Thats unfortunate. I'll be moving instances then. Giving Meta a chance is a lot like giving a mosquito a chance to not suck your blood.
"until something happens"
I suppose Metas history of actively being a bad actor working against societies best interests and enabling hate groups doesn't qualify as 'something'...
Oh, looks like I’m switching instances.
Oh damn guess I will migrate to lemmy.ml and use that until I find out if lemmy.world defederates or not. (Edit turns out it is run by tankies and they are federated with lemmygrad.) While I may or may not stay on lemmy.world depending on if we federate with meta or not. I will no longer suggest Lemmy.ml.
Is mastodon.world the same as lemmy.world?
Is there a list of who’s blocking or not?
Bloody hell, I literally just switched to Lemmy.world, do I really need to switch to Lemmy.ml? Come on guys
What a shame guess I'll stick to my alt over at lemm.ee for the time being
You can read the lemmy.world admin response here
Tolerance paradox applies here too
What exact behaviors are they looking for that would cause them to push the block button?
Threads can do very well for themselves without the fediverse as they are already demonstrating. What real motive do they have to join the fediverse except to shut it down?
Thanks for this, going to delete my lemmy.world account now.
Heck yeah. That's a very balanced and rational approach completely unfuelled by emotions.
Can't say the same for the top comment in this thread, lol.
Be a lot cooler if they did.
I want to be on an instance that defederates, I will move if world does not do it.
The discussion is still on-going.
What is there to discuss?
Fair enough!
The problem with Meta is that they will harm the Fediverse.
I found this article interesting, written by a dev who worked with google during the XMPP EEE and was originally a XMPP dev, thinking that a big company could only mean more success for the FOSS alternative. He was wrong.
Yeah I really hope they come out with the user's ability to block instances soon. Would be a great feature addition. There are a couple of instances that I take no issue with and don't want others to be blocked access too, but I really just don't want to see them in my feed.
If you as user block an instance that doesn't really solve the problem, Threads is still federated and getting your stuff, it's just hidden from you
Is there any reason that they wouldn't?
You can read the lemmy.world admin response here
You can read the lemmy.world admin response here