The average car purchased in 2023 emits higher levels of carbon dioxide (CO₂) than its 2013 equivalent. This is due to the large proportion of SUVs in the mix, which tend to be bigger and heavier.
Which pollutes more: a new SUV or a 10-year-old conventional vehicle?
The title is confusing. It starts by saying "compare the 2023 model to the 2013 model" and then mentions that the mix of cars has changes (proportion of SUVs in the mix). I feel like the title should have been "The average car purchased in 2023 emits higher levels of carbon dioxide (CO₂) than the average car purchased in 2013." Then you can explain "This is due to the large proportion of SUVs in the mix."
There needs to be more proofreading and editing of articles before they are published online, as the title here is a direct quote from the article.
I think you're expecting too much from the English version of Spain's #2 newspaper.
Yep, can't expect too much from El Pais
I wish wagons were more popular. They're great for fitting all the stuff in for the family, but lighter and much better handling. I don't know why SUVs became the thing, but I wish wagons would be a come-back. A Tesla wagon would be awesome.
Took me years to realize but "Crossover SUVs" are basically just Hatchbacks with slightly higher suspensions. Hell, manufacturers like Subaru literally use the same chassis as their sedans.
Which is slightly different than a station wagon but is close enough for the vast majority of people since the main distinction is more vertical storage capacity because of rounded edges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_wagon#Comparison_with_hatchbacks). Which... definitely was an issue when I had to make multiple dump runs but never comes up in "real life" as it were.
Like, I hate that I drive a "SUV". But when I was doing more or less everything I could to NOT buy one I eventually realized "A hatchback Impreza with a lift kit sounds perfect" was literally at the same dealership.
As for SUVs in general: a lot of it is people thinking they need a giant vehicle to carry their one child around town.
But the other aspect is... driving in a sedan sucks these days. You are surrounded by pickup trucks where the wheel axis is already at eye level. You have no visibility in traffic and are pretty regularly afraid of what happens if someone doesn't stop.
Like I said, I drive a hatchback/crossover now. And that generally puts me at bumper height on a lot of trucks which... still means my visibility is shit but means I am less likely to get monster trucks driving on top of me.
The worst crossover I saw is the Ford Ecosport. It is basically a Ford Fiesta with higher suspension. It has nothing to do with a SUV, it is small, has 0 towing capacity, is 3000lbs, has a 3 cylinders engine, cost 30'000$ (in canada). The most useless and expensive thing. A Fiesta was half the price for essentially the same frame/car.
If you drive a Subaru Crosstrek you are not part of the problem imo. That's a reasonably priced, highly functional compact crossover. The real problems are trucks, full-sized SUVs, and other "mall terrain vehicles."
I used to complain about the promotion of hatchback for cargo space because they were really a regular trunk turned vertically. Your Wikipedia link shows that well with the ~2008 Focus examples. If you compare the 2012+ focus, it's a bit clearer because that generation offered a 5 door hatch alongside the 4 door sedan. I disliked the tradeoff of the large rear opening (with folding seats) because it came with a shortened trunk length and the sloped rear glass reduced total volume (compared to a wagon typically having more vertical glass and being longer overall than the sedan). However, the shorter version do have a purpose if you frequently park in the street or any other urban/dense lots. They're easier to parallel park and less likely to get swiped in garages and such as people swing wide. They offer 4-5 seats, they offer a large cargo area, just not at the same time. That makes enough sense to me for vehicles living their daily duty as single-person vehicles.
That's basically how my daily driving duty is now split between a small motorcycle and, for bad weather, a 4x4 (hi/lo) body-on-frame convertible 2-door suv smaller than a miata Geo Tracker.
It doesn’t really matter if you get a larger SUV, you’re still shorter than the jacked up F150+’s and such. We have a car and a 17yo 4Runner (and I try to use it for hauling more than kids and going on more terrain than asphalt), but even the 4Runner is dwarfed by most things. Almost every thing I park it near is larger at this point. Heck a 4th gen 4Runner is within inches of the dimensions of a current Ford Escape, it’s crazy.
Agree. As for the history, wagons were popular in the 70s, but the minivan really took off in the 80s. This led to a perception that Minivans weren’t masculine, so there was a big boom in SUVs which had the volume and utility of a Minivan, but were more manly.
If you're curious, it is because wagons are classified as passenger vehicles and SUVs are classified as light trucks. Wagons are held to higher emissions/safety standards than SUVs, making them less profitable to produce in the US. So most automakers steer clear. They don't want to accidentally compete with their own most profitable products by selling a less profitable one that better-matches what consumers need.
Also fuck Tesla.
Chuck Testa? Nope, fuck Tesla.
Wagons and minivans - which are great substitutes for SUVs - have a negative stigma because everybody’s parents had one and people don’t want to feel old.
Hopefully the same thing will happen to SUVs.
You're probably right but wagons can be cool now.
Huh my parents had a Bronco, don't like that style. Also had a minivan, very good vehicle that I would get for family life.
Not quite a wagon but I love my Honda Fit, it sips gas, handles surprisingly well for a car in its price range and it’s amazing how much stuff you can Fit into the little guy
My old Mazda protege was basically that with a foot longer trunk. It was perfect size.
I'm just glad they're bringing back small trucks. I don't want a small-penismobile, I want a vehicle I can throw some lumber and such in on occasion.
Which is why I love my Hyundai Santa Cruz. Sucker can tow 3500lb but can get 35mpg highway
Aw man I miss my Volvo wagon. I should have never sold it. I would love to get another used one but I would have to pay triple what I sold it for to get it back these days, prices are just insane since they stopped making anything decent years ago.
I was with you on everything until that last sentence.
also interesting is how few car makers even produce normal sized cars anymore, let alone smaller ones.
https://www.newsweek.com/its-hard-find-small-car-us-thats-not-going-change-soon-1808174
Also the average length of car ownership before buying something else is about 5 years, but the average loan duration for a new car is 7 years.
The car market in the US is just screwed.
My Honda Civic was built in 2008 and it's fine. My car before that was a Nissan Sentra and it lived 22 years. Drive them until they are piles of rust kept going by duct tape and raw anger, and try not to shed manly tears when they are crushed into a cube.
I am sorry car, but this is a good death.
that's insane, I have a 2005 toyota corolla with zero interest in getting a new car.
Those that do loans are much more likely to have negativity equity when trading in. Which is already proven with those who have terms longer than 4 years. This means on trading in, the borrower is looking at an increased car payment on top of the already higher average transaction price of $35,000. If you put money down, default on the loan and lose the car, you've quite literally given away money.
It's true the average loan is 7 years, but within the last few years there are 10 year (!) loans are available. This helps bring down an $800 payment. But that interest is gonna suck if you don't get a very low rate.
Those that pay off their loans tend to keep their cars for 10 to 12 years. Assuming the car doesn't catastrophically fail. Which anecdotally happened to our family. 1.6L Ford EcoBoost defect killed the engine 2 years after a 4 year loan was paid off.
Not all cars are bought with loans though.
That has to be the case only in the US.
Not really. Even in EU the cars are getting bigger even if not as fast as in the US.
Some year ago the small city cars were smaller than the today version.
also interesting is how few car makers even produce normal sized cars anymore, let alone smaller ones.
From the article...
"SUVs and crossovers were traditionally less fuel efficient and more expensive, but that's not the case anymore. Engine and technology advancements have leveled those drawbacks. SUVs and crossovers are now just as fuel efficient and offer more hauling capability as similar-sized cars for about the same price in many cases,"
So, who do I believe?
"Engine and technology advancements" can also be applied to smaller cars so that doesn't really move the needle anywhere.
I think it's quite obvious that unless you discover how to break the laws of physics, the smaller car will be always more efficient due to better aerodynamics and lower weight.
There's nothing to not believe, look up the fuel averages. My wife's Escape averages 40mpg.
Interesting that this is focused on the UK and mentions Europe. I (like other commenters) expected this was about the US market before I read the article.
That would mean they were subject to EURO emissions regulations.
Boring coloured SUV is the British car landscape now. The motorways are depressing enough but it's a grey scale dystopia now.
Exactly the same in Australia.
I thought it was at first too. In the U.S. (at least, here in Texas) I feel like the bigger offender is all the lifted trucks, coal-rollers, etc. Not sure how bad muscle cars are but they're also very prevalent. Seems like every 5th person in my city has a Mustang or Charger with a muffler delete.
The US transitioned to SUVs and trucks a long time ago now, so those emissions are already built in
Have you seen the number of fannies driving about in Audi SUVs these days?
They are and carbon emissions restrictions between Euro 5 and 6 didn't change for gas cars. Carbon emissions are directly linked to fuel economy, it either comes out as CO or CO2, that study didn't mention other emissions because it would have shown that more modern SUVs emit less than 10 years old cars because Euro 6 is more strict for the rest. If comparing diesels the difference is even greater.
Heck, with the deterioration of the emission equipment the more modern SUV is probably better for carbon emissions and it's only on paper that the older vehicle is better.
I think it's beyond time to get rid of the "light truck" classification for suvs.
Especially since they aren't even light any more. Compare a Ford Ranger from the 1990s or early 2000s to the current generation and it looks like a toy. The current generation of light trucks and SUVs are bigger than full sized trucks and SUVs from 20 years ago.
The "light truck" segment is in comparison to the big semis or tractor trailers, which are medium or heavy duty trucks, and often require a commercial driver's license to operate.
For example, the typical school bus or fire truck is classified as a medium duty truck.
Heavy duty trucks generally include things like cement mixers or dump trucks.
There's an interesting corollary to this in the school bus world. Beginning in 2004, the EPA started imposing emissions standards on diesel engines and the standards have become increasingly stringent over the years. The standards govern the allowed amounts of NOx (nitrous oxides) and particulate matter to be emitted, but the units measured are per-horsepower-miles, meaning that an engine with twice the horsepower is allowed to emit twice the NOx and twice the particulate matter amounts, which has led to bus engines that have much more power than their counterparts from twenty years ago did - despite this added power being largely unnecessary for hauling kids around at relatively low speeds.
And importantly, the EPA diesel engine standards do not in any way govern CO2 output, so today's school bus fleet is emitting far more of it than twenty years ago.
More interestingly, the emissions equipment which prevents particulate matter from entering the atmosphere does so by burning more fuel. This makes the engines emit even more co2 than they would without the emissions.
Are you sure about that? I think possibly you're thinking of EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) which most engine manufactures used to handle the initial 2004 standards (which did not include particulate matter standards) but which is not really used any more. The main things used today are DPF (diesel particulate filter) and DEF (diesel exhaust fluid).
I'm not a diesel mechanic or anything, I just know what I know from owning a school bus (from 2003, yay!) and researching the emissions issues.
Hey don't hate on factory 600+lb-ft diesels so many great engine swaps in my OSB pickups future.
I don't remember the name of the effect, but it seems to happen a lot of times when newer technologies makes things consume less. People end up consuming more, either by increase of size, duration of use of using more of the thing.
Yes! It's called Jevons paradox
Wow it is like induced demand but for resources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
Thank you!
This isn't an example of that though, its just a result of deliberately terrible emissions regulation brought on by lobbying.
Yep, providing exemptions for vehicles under the weight threshold where a commercial driver's license is required is dumb.
Could you elaborate? Edit: I see, other people mentioned in the thread about the lobbies and efforts to mask emissions.
Vacuum cleaners are the classic example, IMO.
When introduced, they were supposed to make cleaning rugs take less time, freeing time and effort for other activities, but instead housewives just cleaned their rugs more often.
Would means rugs are quite a bit cleaner now, so I would say the vacuum did its job.
Induced demand. If the option is there people will use it.
led comes to mind here with this explanation. extremely more efficient then most other light sources. but because it is so efficient we see led being used everywhere. and almost never turned of because people say it barely uses any power. also the operating time is so high that companies purposely put components behind the led that break so they can sell more. (similar what they did to the old light bulb)
also the operating time is so high that companies purposely put components behind the led that break so they can sell more.
Could you elaborate with more detail, or share some links for articles that describe that?
What if instead we had Less Cars and more Public Transit?
Sure! But that's not a silver bullet.
Decarbonization is a multi-prong solution and switching everything over to public transportation would take decades. It takes time to create the infrastructure and generations to change minds. Investing in public transportation, bike infrastructure and electrifying our cars are all necessary for our goal to lower green house gasses.
Perfect is the enemy of good
Id like to have more public transit than I currently have which is none.
Please clap lemmy
"But there's no profit in that. Why would we do that?"
But there is profit in it. Public transit can be a revenue generator that at least pays for itself as opposed to roads that are nothing but a huge cost over its lifetime.
And then there are the second-order effects of better economic activity in the areas around metro stations, a healthier populace that is less of a burden on the healthcare system, and overall higher happiness, which makes for better workers. It's just that it can take a decade or two to see these effects come to fruition.
But politicians rarely see that far out.
Do you go to work for free?
As a cyclist, COVID lockdown was bliss. No vehicles on the roads, just other cyclists out for their hour of exercise. It was literally mind blowing how different the roads felt.
It seems like the growth of trucks should play a big part of it, too. When I was young the majority of vehicles on the road were cars. Where I'm at, at least, it seems like the majority of people are driving trucks with a large minority of crossovers, and the occasional 10 year old car.
A big part of this is also that the auto industry is increasingly steering people to buy big, expensive, profitable trucks over smaller, saner, more reasonable vehicles (that they earn less profit on).
It's not just that consumers "want" these vehicles. Consumers are being pushed to want them.
There's a reason Kei-style trucks basically do not exist in the US -- because they're cheap and useful and the automakers thus dare not allow them.
Vehicles classified as light duty trucks in the US are also not subject to such strict emissions standards. Many crossovers are classified as light trucks despite being the same platforms as sedans, but because the classification is different the crossover can cut costs the sedan can't at the expense of emissions. And because of this for a while now "light trucks" have composed the majority of vehicle sales in the US.
It's confusing that vehicles get favorable treatment from the EPA simply for being taller. Sounds like industry lobbying happened to me since SUVs are conveniently also well known for having the best profit margins.
You can thank the EPA and their CAFE standards for that.
The more I read about them, the worse it gets.
It seems like auto manufacturers are using vehicle footprint as a means to reach higher safety statistics instead of actually designing safer vehicles, which in turn directly impacts gas efficiency.
It's like a rat race to the biggest consumer trucks we now have on the road; the more truck-class vehicles we have, the less safe it is for cars. So they make bigger vehicles to accommodate and the cycle continues.
The dumbest thing is if you look at actual crash test statistics, SUVs don't actually perform better than passenger cars, by and large. Maybe a bit, but definitely not enough to justify the huge difference in size and cost. Smart cars are a great example -- they actually perform super well in crash testing in spite of being so tiny.
People get so confused about the whole relative size thing. They think being in a bigger vehicle makes them inherently safer -- but that isn't really true. Being in a SAFER vehicle makes you safer. Big SUVs with their poor suspension and stiff frames, in many kinds of common accidents, perform very poorly.
The confusion comes because people forget there are two vehicles involved in the kinds of accidents they are scared of. They think that if their vehicle is bigger, it means the other vehicle is smaller. And of course, if the vehicle you're in a collision with is smaller, you will be safer. But it doesn't matter that it be smaller than you. It needs to be smaller in absolute terms.
And in a crash with a stationary object or rollover, being in a one of these trucks is pretty much universally worse.
Of course, the entire appeal to "safety" is nonsense anyway. US roads are just not safe. They are not designed to be safe. Safety is not a priority. Level of service is the priority. We can and happily do sacrifice safety for the sake of reducing congestion all the time. Just look at how nearly-universal right on red and sliplanes are, or how often we put in expensive urban signalized intersections instead of all-way stops.
Someone pointed our interesting loop in US legislative about trucks and how producers are making their cars bigger to escape small trucks hard mile/gas / size quotas + lobbying of car makers to keep the trend going because bigger car = more profit. I wonder how big they can get them before them trucks can't drive in single line. Is there something similar to SUV by any chance?
Trucks like the Ford Raptor and "super duty" pickup variants (f250+/GM&Ram2500+) have extra lighting due to their width... So you can use that as an indicator. There is a limit to width.
Now the number of people capable of parking these things.....
Relevant video on this: https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo
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anyone who buys an SUV is a stupid fucker. there are other types of cars that have just as much unnecessary seat space in them. if you bought an SUV I'm talking directly to you and I'm calling you an idiot to your face. on the internet.
My Ford Taurus isn't going to get into the Uintas or Wasatch range. Getting rid of my SUV will really hurt my wifes ability to release rehabilitated animals.
But, I don't want to be a stupid fucker. What should I get after I get rid of my SUV?
Subaru hatchbacks are great off road and have about the same capacity as most SUVs.
Even an older model SUV like a Honda CRV will take up a lot less space than its modern counterpart. Station wagons can be sexy too if that's your style.
While parent is extreme and minimizes that some people have legitimate needs... You do raise another interesting point... You have an SUV and a Fullsize Sedan. I'm sure you have your reasons but it's an amusing anecdote.
A station wagon is easier for moving animals, more space than a small SUV - it's lower to the ground (huge plus if you have to lift them in, easier for them if you are leading them up a portable ramp).
The trade off is you can't do soft sand, cross deeper streams etc, but IMO animals don't need to be released far off track, to me it's worth the trade off.
People driving heavy terrain in wilderness around here use small jeep like cars. Even US army used use them back in the day before monster trucks became a thing.
Edit: I meant small variants. Not the big size ones.
What about BEV SUVs?
They are a lot more efficient in their class and might convince some ICE drivers to switch. Their range tends to be quite good. Unfortunately they have drawbacks:
it's a fucking stupid piece of shit for the same reason the other ones are pieces of shit. you think electricity is magic or something? like it comes free out of God's asshole? your car sucks ass you fell for a scam
You're the asshole here. There's SUVs and crossovers (aka short SUVs), almost zero sedans are manufactured these days thanks to the dumb ass govt and cafe. I don't even want nor have**** an SUV, but judging people for having something you don't want is ignorant and foolish. People pick from what is available for the most part. Giant cheap ass SUVs are easier to find than a small sedan that gets 4 mpg better mileage and that's the govt's fault.
Who said it's unessasary? You? Speak for your own needs. What about the utility part? Where are you putting large bulky items? How about many bags of top soil? Trash going to a dump maybe?
It's amazing how pathetically ignorant you are to think your needs line up with everybody elses. There are FAR more cars on the road than trucks. You'd know that if you actually lived in this country. People buy trucks because we need them, do you think we just LIKE paying more at the pump or something? If I could get away with some hyper fuel efficient thing you don't think me and my wallet would love that especially at today's bullshit gas prices?
My wife's Small SUV/CUV averages a little over 40mpg, you have zero legit complaint against them. They're also no bigger than cars ever were, they just sit SLIGHTLY higher. You have no clue what you're talking about.
How often do you carry large bulky items that you specifically need an SUV for? Because I'm pretty certain the justification you use happens maybe 4 times a year.
In Not just Bikes video on the subject, they've demonstrated that the utility portion of small trucks/ SUVs from all the auto makers have been getting weaker over time (loss of cargo space), and yet people still buy them.
There is also that pesky light truck exemption the USA has held on to for decades.
I wonder if something similar comes into play in the European market as well.
Yep. If exemptions required a CDL there would be far fewer exempt vehicles being made.
Rollie Williams and Nicole Conlan from Climate Town on YT talked about this on their podcast, The Climate Denier's Playbook, a few weeks ago.
Car companies, at least domestic ones, are subverting fuel economy rules by making cars "like trucks" due to a loophole in the code about Light Duty vehicles (SUVs are light duty trucks and hence get around requirements that other, smaller light duty vehicles have imposed on them).
It's the same reason we see bigger and bigger trucks that look like tanks and that you can't see children from. Those bigger vehicles require bigger engines to move, hence more greenhouse emissions.
It just goes back to H. W. Bush's statement that "the American way of life is not up for negotiation" in addressing climate change. It's like everything (that doesn't threaten profits too much) is up for negotiation, except for the primary driver of the problem.
Iirc, the "light Trucks" is only in US law through, right?
Correct, but companies prefer to minimize costs to maximize profit, so if a large portion of their total markets changes rules, companies will likely adjust so that their products are all the same for all markets. A similar thing will probably happen with Apple once the USB-C thing goes into effect in the EU, affecting US and other markets.
There's a video that the longer the wheelbase of the vehicle the less stringent it has to be on fuel economy. Something about the 2008 or so cafe laws. Lots of older cars without direct injection get better fuel economy than newer ones that are just taller with the same interior capacity.
This is almost an "arms race" situation, since when there are so many gigantic SUVs and pickup trucks on the road, driving in a smaller car becomes a lot less safe in case of an accidental collision with a larger, heavier vehicle, and the only way to reduce that risk is to drive a gigantic SUV/pickup truck yourself and further exacerbate the problem.
Having this many large vehicles on the street makes driving on the highway dangerous and unpleasant. LA's traffic is especially terrible.
To say nothing of how dangerous it is for pedestrians, especially children. Some of these vehicles have less forward visibility than, not even kidding, a fucking Abrams tank:
It looks like the "arms race" analogy is more apt than I thought then.
The kids they usually end up hitting are their own in their driveways, so it's kind of darwinism in action
Plus its honestly getting kind of hard to NOT buy an SUV or a large car. The smallest car at an American Honda dealership is an SUV (HRV) now and its fucking massive compared to their smallest car from just a few years ago (Honda Fit). If you wanted an actual compact car you aren't getting one there. That is the same story at a lot of dealers. EVERYTHING is big. Hell, even historic compacts like the Civic and Corolla are massive next to their previous generations. I have a 2000 civic that looks like a toy next to a 2023 civic.
The Civic and the Accord have grown quite a bit since their creation.
First gen Accord, from Wikipedia: Length 4,450 mm (175.2 in) (sedan) - Width 1,620 mm (63.8 in) (sedan) - Height 1,360 mm (53.5 in) (sedan) - Curb weight 898–945 kg (1,980–2,083 lb)
Current Accord: Length 4,970 mm (195.7 in) - Width 1,860 mm (73.2 in) - Height 1,450 mm (57.1 in)
It's now 520 mm (20.5") longer, 240 mm (9.4") wider, and even 90 mm (3.6") taller.
The Civic has gone through a similar transition over its lifetime.
Unfortunately, it's hard to compare other brands because so few have had such long-running nameplates, so you have to start comparing different models in the same market, which I'm too lazy to do.
It's worth noting the curb weight has gone up dramatically, too. The current Accord is 1,469 - 1,488 kg (3,239 to 3,280 lbs) based on a quick Google search (it's not in Wikipedia). So it weighs more than 1.5 original Accords.
Even cars aren't immune to size inflation.
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I'm the city centre where I live, I'm allowed to drive a gigantic petrol 4x4 because it was made in 2021. A friend ours can't take their 2010 petrol Polo in because they'll be charged a congestion charge for their emissions.
A lot of so called environmental legislation is just hidden taxes on the poor masquerading as progressiveness.
Fuck congestion charges and fuck anyone who thinks that the average person can make a dent on this shit when companies and governments around the world continue to funnel more toxic and permanent chemicals into our environment every day than 1000 individuals will in their lifetime.
What is a congestion charge in this case? It sounds more like a traffic/road maintenance thing than related to emissions?
Most places I've lived (US and Canada) only require emissions testing if the vehicle is old enough not to have modern emissions control sensors. The test costs maybe $20 every couple years, which is nothing compared to all the other costs of owning a vehicle.
Presumably your 2010 Polo doesn't have a check-engine light if the catalytic converter has a hole in it, but your 2021 4x4 most certainly does.
Edit: (See comments below about emissions systems).
Specifically Washington State only required emissions testing (tailpipe test on a Dyno) on model years 2008 and older, after which the only requirement is California's "CARB certified" with no testing other than at the factory. And as of 2020 they don't even do emissions testing anymore.
It is a charge to drive an older (not better working or less polluting necessarily) model mode of transport in a particular area. It is not a test or anything. Most of these are enforced with licence plate readers and the info on the registry.
The Polo is not mine, I have the 4x4. S friend has the Polo.
Where I live it is law to have a fully functional catalytic converter and it's tested every year and replaced if needed.
Also it's a poor justification anyway, we don't legislate to fine people for something their car might be doing. But then that's not really what the congestion charge is aimed at because it's a really obvious poor tax that people tolerate because it will ultimately ease congestion, albeit unfairly.
Fuck SUVs.
In the US, this is due to auto makers working around CAFE standards
No, that's a crying point for thinking that every vehicle can magically get that number by literally being testing in 100 difference situations. Average / combinations is all you're going to get. Clearly MFG's still try to get as much as possible, they're not stupid and know it's a selling point.
It's not about the testing, it's about the SUV/light truck loophole that's allowed automakers to build larger vehicles that aren't counted for CAFE calculations. Here's one article about it: https://www.distilled.earth/p/the-loophole-that-made-cars-in-america
Do we need another oil price shock to teach people a lesson again?
Or just taxing it appropriately, rather than letting people think driving 3 tons of metal 80 miles a day is a normal and responsible thing to do.
They never last long enough for people to remember the lesson. After a year or two, prices return to 'normal'. Then 2-3 years after that, car makers release fuel efficient vehicles that nobody wants because fuel prices have gone back down.
the steady increases over time have a boiling frog effect. Someone could probably start a gas subscription business right now to offer a steady price at participating gas stations for a monthly fee and make a FUCKLOAD of money.
I'd gladly pay the extra fuel costs to have a vehicle that's worth a damn and has actual towing, hauling, and off road capabilities.
A body on frame SUV (like a Ford Excursion) is quite possibly the most utilitarian and swiss army knife like vehicles available. It seats a huge amount of people, has as much space as a cargo van, has the same tow rating as a 3/4 ton truck, and its 4WD with big tires and lots of ground clearance.
And we did this to ourselves to make pickups in the USA not be required to have additional licensing. We did before Ragan if I recall correctly.
Edit
4 replies and they are fixated on Ragan. Didn’t state he was repossable or not. Here is a good video about this. https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo?si=7PsOF-WE8MXX87vX
What the fuck does Regan have anything to do with a comparison from 2013 -> 2023?
What is this fixation with Regan I see on Lemmy literally everywhere?
The correct answer is to charge taxes based on miles driven * [a factor/multiplier of the]cars weight.
Not sure what a president from 1988 would have shit to do with this.
Edit: Also, this article is UK based... So it's even doubly so of "what the fuck does Regan have to do with it?"
I agree it’s as silly as it is unproductive to claim that Reagan is directly responsible for something like this, as if everything he did was somehow written in stone for 30+ years.
The person you replied to was referencing the CAFE standards, which are far more lenient when it comes to so-called “light trucks”. Thanks to a vague legal definition that was never changed , “the class includes vans, minivans, sport utility vehicles, and pickups” (source). Since inefficient “light trucks” are much more profitable than fuel-efficient cars, that’s where the marketing budget went for the last couple decades.
A couple of important hiccups, though:
People see a meme saying Reagan is the root of all evil and think it's actually true.
CAFE should just differentiate by unibody and body/frame.
Make unibody have a high requirement.
You want a truck? You can have a truck.
And get rid of paying your way out of your mileage requirement. Or at least raise the rate astronomically.
This is basically what we already have. What we should do is require drivers to have a CDL to drive body on frame trucks.
Why do they have different standards, anyway? A vehicle is a vehicle, sort of, when it comes to emissions.
I'm not sure what parent is after exactly.
Body in frame is an older way of making cars but it's far easier/cheaper to make thos heavy duty and modular (e.g. an f250 can be a pickup, tow truck, ambulance, dump truck...)
Unibody is more modern.
Most people can live with a unibody truck (Maverick,Ridgeline,Colorado).
I don't thing there's causation between unibody and body on frame as far as fuel consumption is concerned.
We'd need a mechanism that incentives smaller vehicles without impacting the services relying on the heavy duty vehicles...
A Maverick starting at like $24k and an f150 at $35k isn't enough...
2013 was just 3 days ago
World or US?
This article, and the source it links to, appears to be talking about the UK actually.
There are a lot of SUV type vehicles on the road in the UK, it's frustrating was most people do not need that kind of car.
It's a safe bet that the problem is that much worse in the US. There's a giant marketing apparatus here that's dedicated to selling a self-image that includes giant trucks and SUVs.
I wonder how motorcycles have fared? Motorcycle engine emissions seem to work different than car emissions. One thing I see a lot of is engines that were designed in the 80's or 90's (or 40's, if it's the right Royal Enfield) and are still sold now basically unmodified. You can buy a 2023 Suzuki DR650 right now today, and it will still have an air cooled engine with a carburetor on it.
But tightening emissions regulations have started to push out some of these engines. There probably won't be a 2024 DR650. The air-cooled Sportsters can't be sold in the EU now, and it won't be long before they're gone in the US.
I went from a 2009 Suzuki with the most simple of engines to a 2023 Harley with fuel injection, and overhead cams with variable valve timing. It has got to be a cleaner running engine, but I wonder how it compares to cars?
I think, and don't quote me, there have been some changes mostly to the exhaust/tuning side of things to cut emissions. I ride a '17 Bolt r-spec, and pretty much the most common mod is to change the air intake, pipes, and a fuel controller because the stock ones are kinda wimpy for emissions concerns. That said, a cursory search seems to indicate that bikes are terrible. Of course, you have to take into account that bikes produce less emissions, however pound for pound seem to produce significantly worse emissions. FTA:
The [BMW] GS highway CO2 equivalent is a stunning 380 g/mile (17% worse than the RAM truck). They found that a 1993 Honda Shadow VX600 with only 583 ccs spews a whopping 408 g/mile. That is twice as much as a new Honda Civic.
Other studies would suggest the problem is even worse. Global MRV tested out its portable emissions equipment in 2011 comparing 12 motorcycles to 12 cars of varying years — this was featured on an episode of “Mythbusters.”. Motorcycles were almost universally terrible, with motorbikes from the 2000s producing 3,220% more NOx and 8,065% more CO2 than cars of the same era.
Not great. It seems though that based on the article, there are relatively few studies by comparison and that bikes aren't regulated near the degree that cars are. I'll also say that in the above example of a '93 Shadow, that is a carbeurated bike and in that era would have been doing basically nothing to try to curb emissions. Comparatively, a new Honda Civic is going to be fuel injected with a catalytic converter and so forth. The other point of comparison they use is the above BMW 1150 GS, which is cited from a 2008 study, so at newest a 2008 bike, which they compare to a 2020 Dodge Ram. These just aren't particularly useful comparisons because especially in the last 5-10 years, emissions standards especially for cars are ridiculously different than the era of those bikes. I would really be curious to see how something even slightly modern (like, say, my Bolt with the stock tuning/catalytic converter, etc) compares.
I agree, it's not a useful comparison between a 2008 motorcycle and 2020 vehicle.
There's been advancements in motorcycle engines too in the last 5-10 years. Variable valve timing is a common thing in cars (even a Mitsubishi Mirage has it, and it doesn't even have a fourth cylinder) but until recently there werent many bikes that had it. But now you can even buy a Harley (you know, the motorcycle company that everyone says makes primitive engines) with variable valve timing.
Ive recently replaced the engine, but I hope to keep driving my 08 Speed3 for another decade. It's annoying having everything else in the road so much larger, but I don't want anything this size.
#RejectSUVEembraceMiniVan
I enjoy being able to see out my car. 04 impala here. Parents have a 2018 Highlander and it's a heavy awful low visibility nightmare to drive.
The US started phasing in roof crush requirements in 2012, which caused manufacturers to put in more metal for the frame. That meant reducing visibility and all but requiring backup cameras.
Why do we need roof crush requirements? Because those SUVs have a high center of gravity.
This has been the way of things. Cars are just plain unsafe, and trying to make them safe also makes them worse at everything else, including being affordable.
So, are they bigger and heavier, or are they equivalent?
Bigger and heavier vehicles (more specifically “trucks” which aren’t legally defined by their beds and encompass virtually anything larger than a simple sedan) are exempt from the majority of fuel economy standards. As a result many auto makers have just straight up stopped making “cars” and shifted entirely to larger vehicles because they can get away with more emissions. Yes, a 2023 SUV is slightly more efficient than a 2013 SUV, but so many more of them are being sold instead of cars that the overall emissions are way higher. I love my Ford Focus from 2017 but Ford literally cancelled every single sedan, coupe and hatchback other than the Mustang and now exclusively makes SUVs, trucks and a single sports car.
That's the whole point, what good would it be to compare equivalent vehicles, when people don't drive equivalent vehicles? They drive bigger and heavier vehicles on average, negating efficiency gains of newer vehicles.
I got a CRV hybrid that gets 2mpg less than my wife's 2012 civic manual
Jokes on them, still using an SUV from 2001 over here.
2007 diesel pickup here. It's even a two seater with a long bed so an actual work truck. Basically makes me a saint compared to those evil SUV drivers.
Meanwhile here I am driving a little 2L manual fiesta (ST150/XR4). Not great, but not bad mileage, but fun AF to drive, and lightweight. It only has a 45L tank, as opposed to a 60-100L tank you find in larger cars.
Then there's also the fact I only drive on weekends or after work. I use public transportation for my commute to work.
I work in the auto industry. Besides the standard 4WD, SUVs have almost nothing going for them compared to a 5 door hatch/station wagon/estate sedan.
I mean, a RAV4 for example, while doing everything it says on the box, and not being an outright bad vehicle, has only marginally more passenger and cargo room than, for example, a Corolla Hatch, while consuming multiple MPG more. Sure, the 4WD contributes to this, but due to the lower weight, better aerodynamics, and smaller engine of a Corolla, it would still be more efficient even if it also had 4WD.
It says "2013 equivalent", referring to average car bought in 2023.
But that doesn't matter, because it's not the headline of the article, but OP editorializing it.
It's also not technology. It'd be nice if one of the "technology" communities actually focused on technology and scientific development, not business news or whatever Elon Musk is doing today.
This is good because when the world goes to shit while the sun is cooking us alive and people want to use my shelter in the post apocalypse, I can tell them all to fuck off without feeling bad for them.
Idk why I like SUV. I don't need one, I know I shouldn't have one, yet I'd like to own one. I hate sedan for absolutely no reason.
People like to be higher on the road, especially higher than other people.
I guess I understand the desire, but I feel the opposite.
The few times I've driven trucks or vans, I felt really uncomfortable, like I might accidentally run over something without noticing it.
There are 7 billion people. How exactly are we going to have a system where they all try to be the highest?
The main benefit imo is not having other car's headlights directly at your eye level. When all the other cars are so much bigger and higher than yours they often don't see you (or pedestrians), which is somewhat dangerous. Of course by then switching to an SUV or truck you instead contribute to the problem which propagates the cycle further. So I stick to my little hatchback with 40mpg+ and just deal with the fact that I'll always have headlights higher off the road than my face and be taking evasive action to avoid getting hit every once in a while.
I like sitting higher so I can see over other vehicles. Also as a tall person getting into and out of a truck is much easier than from a car. Safety plays a big factor aswell; if I end up in a accident I'll rather be in the bigger vehicle. Compared to american trucks mine is quite compact though. It's called Frontier in the US.
Make sense, I'm a tall person myself, 188cm (6"2'), I got trouble fitting in some sedan and hatchback (my head would hit the ceiling if I sit straight up). Maybe that's why I don't like them.
I just learned about the Tyre Extinguishers. They use lentils to depress the pin on the valve cap of an SUV's tyre, so that the tyre deflates without getting damaged. It's super effective and it's not a crime. They are called the Tyre Extinguishers.
Yeah I call bullshit. People don’t want modern cars because they are low to the ground, smaller and harder for people to get into.
As a 6’2” dude every time I get into a rental car I smack my head and have to contort myself to get in and out. There is also never enough room for anything beyond a few suitcases. I always breathe a sigh of relief when I get back to my truck after a long business trip in a car.
Crossovers and trucks are popular because they have space and are easier to get out of. Full size cars from the 80s tend to be way bigger than full size cars from today. Once cars started shrinking and getting lower to meet EPA mileage requirements which is also the same period of time when people started abandoning cars for trucks and SUVs in the 90s.
A friend of mine was 6'7" and drove a hyundai elantra. Also has a condition that causes him severe fatigue and joint pain. He makes so much fun of little bitches like you, because the elantra easily and comfortably accommodates him so there's no fucking way it doesn't also accommodate you.
Meh I'm 6'4" and don't mind the small cars. In fact I prefer them when getting rentals. They're easier to drive and park and cheaper to fuel up. I got an Escalade recently because it was the last car available and I hated it.
1.9% of americans are 6'2" or above
Shit I'm 6'1" and I drive a Miata.
Modern sedans are so tall you barely even get "down" into them. And you can't use the "its easier to get in" when you have to jump up into something like a Tahoe, or step up into something smaller like a Rav 4.
What reality do you live in that you think vehicles in the U.S. are getting smaller? Please compare a new Colorado or Maverick pickup to an S-10 or Ranger from the 90's. Sales of fullsize cars have decreased over time (but that's only because they have been replaced by trucks and SUVs).
Let me give you the TLDR summary. I made the point that trucks and SUVs became popular about the same time that full size cars got smaller in America.
No where did I state that trucks or SUVs got smaller.
You can’t tell me a 80s Chevy Caprice is the same size as a 23 Honda Accord or Nissan Maxima.
I'm 6'3" and fit into my small car no problem. And it's got more space than my neighbor's SUV because it's a wagon.
Plus minivans are just as big, if not bigger, and have a high seating position, but aren't popular.
This video here explains one of the issues one minute in. Definitely worth a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh4H9qZ-_6Y&t=55
The way car companies are working around this legislation is why it's so hard to find and buy smaller sized cars (like smart cars) even if there is demand. It also makes our community less safe for pedestrian traffic.
The sad part is that Europe is seeing a lot of SUVs too. Not as big as whzt we see in the US. But they are there. We also start seeing american style pick up trucks. Luckily, people pay more taxes for these kind of cars.
In Switzerland there was apparently some kind of loophole in the tax system which allowed you to register your pickup truck as a company vehicle (and pay less) even when you don’t have any company or if you are just working as a hairdresser..
They're so fucking stupid. Worse in every way compared to normal cars, but they make idiots feel important, and car makers seem to prefer them.
Ford fucking discontinued the C-Max, a great car in my opinion, and replaced it with... Nothing? The Puma? It's way smaller, while the Kuga is more expensive.
Oh and by the way, most of these SUVs are 2WD so they ridiculous in any kind of non-optimal road, let alone off the road.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=Fh4H9qZ-_6Y&t=55
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I can’t stand those idiot trucks that have a chopped-in-half rear bed so they can cram in an undersized back seat.
A truck is for moving shit. If you can’t fit a sheet of plywood in the back of your truck, your truck is a candy ass piece of crap powered by 100% small dick energy.
I call them vans with a 4 foot tumour.
I've seen trucks with 8' beds and big crew cabs. They're like 30 feet long, though