‘There were no warning signs’: what happens when your partner falls into the ‘manosphere’?

"Do you regularly watch videos by Jordan Peterson?" kinda needs to become one of those before-first-date screening questions.

What if the answer is yes, but I'm laughing at him the whole time?
Editing this dumb two day old throwaway comment to point out if you want to actually overcome the rhetoric you disagree with, then you need to pay enough attention to it to actually interact with people who take it seriously, because apparently I'm still getting replies.
- Still shows that you've got a whole lot of time to waste and that you might be susceptible to eventually fall down the rabbit hole
- Views = money/support for them. Doesn't matter if you're laughing or not.
- What's about him is in the least bit funny or entertaining?
- That's also bad. You regularly hate-watch him? Don't you have anything better to do with your time?
  It should only take you about 15 minutes of watching him to understand his gimmick. He used undefined and undefinable terms like "cultural marxism". He cherry picks out of context sciencey stuff to back up his point of view. He acts super serial all the time to make people think he's a serious person. That's it. You don't need to watch any more.
either that or: ben shapiro, or joe roegan videos.
- Does UFC count as watching Joe Rogan videos even if his commentary annoys the shit out of you and you wish he had no part in it? Because he already pisses me off this would be the last straw.
- Weirdly, I know of more women who listen to joe rogan than men (okay, the numbers are 2 to 0, so not that mindblowing). I don't fucking get it.
  It was the same thing with friends who liked Elon Musk before he went fully mask off after buying Twitter. Who he was, and the function he provided, was so completely obvious to anyone who was paying attention. I don't get how anyone could miss it.
Very direct. They could lie about it. Better to ask conceptually I think.
- Ask about Lex Fridman: at least for tech geeks it is the antichamber to Joe Rogan and the pandemonium thereafter.
- "What can you tell me about jungian archetypes?"
You needs to screen your partners SoMe algorithm

All incelularity is self-inflicted. They put up all the barriers. I mean, it's obvious on the face of it; there is obviously no conspiracy to keep this one guy celibate. If there are factors that are keeping him celibate, they are entirely his own.
- I'm not trying to defend them, but the lonely guy to incel pipeline is a real thing. They are targeted, propagandized, and monetized. I believe people are responsible for the decisions they make, so I'm not saying they aren't to blame for that, but I am saying it's more complex than just that.
- If there are factors that are keeping him celibate, they are entirely his own.
  Though not entirely, that's no reason to become an incel, either. No girl got to hop on anyone's D ever.
Maybe they’re gay
EDIT: and won’t admit it so they overcompensate
- Nuh uh, fuck that sweety, that's some straight boy shit for sure.
- The Patriarchy has always been homoerotic. Even society's choice of male sex symbols, the Hemsworth type, was made by men. Turns out what women actually like is scrawny Koreans.
Back in my day when I was living on the street we called them volcels. And by back in my day I mean a few years ago, and by the street I mean discord.

12% of young women support Tate? That's way higher than what I expected :( I can't understand why would any woman support someone who makes a fortune out of exploiting and abusing women openly

Tradwife content is on the rise for women as well, more and more young people are buying into this mythical simpler past as the world gets more complex, alienating and difficult.
- I can understand that but how come being a webcam girl and endure physical and psychological abuse fit in the "tradwife" narrative? It's particularly support for Tate what I can't understand
- mythical simple past but they wouldn't put down the fucking phone. anything but the phone!!
  (regardless of gender)
- Sorry if a dumb question but what is a “tradwife”? (Not a native speaker)
- I'm reminded of the inspiration behind the Rust programming language.
  "Rust is very much a language inspired from the past to save the future from itself."
  Sorry, rampant consumerism has been detrimental to our species as a whole. Now no matter how much we have, it's never enough.
  I'm glad people are fighting back against this 'new normal' that really only exists to funnel as much money as possible to the people at the top.
  Also, if you leave Western nations you'll see that this "mythical simpler past" is still alive and well. The rest of the world is looking at the West like we're crazy, and most of us are. It's called hysteria.
Almost every survey will get 6-10% of people answering yes to the most extreme or batshit crazy option, no matter what.
Probably the main reason is that people are pissed off that they are being approached by survey takers and punish the survey for revenge.
And there are some batshit crazy people out there.
- The Lizardman Constant.
- And then there are elections.
These would be the "pick me's" whether they realize it or not
Women who are raised by misogynists but can't see past it. Women who have insecurities and can't see past it. They are latching on to the same order for security cuz it's all they know. Just a guess
I once sat next to a couple on the plane and the young woman was showing her bf a video of Tate talking about how men should be stoic and never complain because no one wants to hear that pussy bullshit. She was saying things to him like “You know how you freak out and bitch at me? You should be like him.”
So yeah… there are women out there who like him. They like hardcore traditional gender roles, is probably the base of it, and want a man doing cliche man shit like Tate preaches. Some women are dealt a great hand by traditional standards: big tits, blond hair, nice face, and they would rather settle into being provided for than fuss with all that feminism stuff. It’s idiotic but people believe whatever’s in their interests. And surprise surprise, these women don’t want men to have emotional needs.
- Please tell me that was before it was well known that he was a criminal
You must be new to the world, then.
Getting everyone to agree on anything is nigh-impossible.

Occasionally my partner does or says some things that remind me of the “manosphere” aka 4chan neckbeards.

And when it happens, we talk about it. I don’t pretend or let it go as “he doesn’t mean it” or “he doesn’t know what he’s saying”. I don’t get mad and he doesn’t get mad. We have an adult discussion and I’m careful not to talk down to him.

A perfect example was that he sometimes says “females” when he means “women”. I explain that it’s not a swear word but it’s still derogatory. I explain why. Once I did, he understood and stopped doing it.

It doesn’t have to be a big deal! Communication is key!

- I laughed at this and now I’m going to do that in my head whenever I see that word
i don't know how could anyone watch Star Trek DS9 and still call women "females" like a Ferengi
- Funny you say that! He doesn’t do it anymore but I just sent him this meme from !tenforward@lemmy.world!
- serious answer: by consistently running and reading experiments that refer to male and female patients.
  I try my best, but if I've read three-four papers in a day about a topic and all of them use male and female, probably gonna accidentally say female.
Communication is key
Sure, but honestly it sounds tiring if this kind of discussion is a recurring thing.
- Agreed! But for me it’s not all that often, luckily.
- Yeah, why can't he just agree with you on everything right out the gate?
- No. Stop treating people like livestock.
Good luck with that. A red flag is a red flag.
- I appreciate that he is willing to learn and grow. We all make mistakes. If you understand why it’s offensive and keep doing it, yeah red flag.
  I think the ability to change with new information is admirable.
- I'm sure this person really appreciates this warning about a person that they know and you don't
- I think it depends on how often they're coming up with dubious takes, and how often there are repeats.
  Like if you have to explain that gay people are just trying to live life, and that's fixing misinformation they got as a youth, fine. Good, even. But if you have that talk and then have to have to again a month later because they "forgot" or picked up more bad ideas? Concerning.
  Friend of a friend was always getting talks to patch up his dicey world view, but then he'd go back to the same YouTube or shitty friends and come back two weeks later with a fresh batch of bad ideas. Really have to get to the root of the problem
- I'm guessing you're single.
  Everyone, keep in mind, there's a lot of losers on the internet who will never find love and don't want you to find love, either.
  Don't end up like them unless you want to.
it’s still derogatory
It logically isn't. While you think that, and anyone spending their future with you should mind it, it doesn't make it true.
- Language isn’t always about logic. Discussing things in terms of male/female is fine in many contexts but is often done when discussing science or medical topics. Ex: the male pelvis has a different, narrower shape than the female pelvis. It’s also used in situations where people are deliberately ‘othering’ people. Watch any police bodycam footage and you’ll see that cops frequently say “male/female” when discussing non-police individuals.
  In daily life, most people use men/women for non-scientific discourse. The women’s restroom. A group of men at the restaurant. Etc.
  But here’s the thing. Male/female are used for any species (a male beetle), but man/woman are only used for humans.
  Assholes like Tate push a twist in this dynamic so that men are called men but women are called females because it can be dehumanizing to women. When you say female you could be talking about an insect, but a man is human. It’s a succinct example of their philosophy. That’s why people consider it derogatory.
- It is if you say “man” and “female” instead of “male” and “female”. While it can be a noun, it’s mainly used as an adjective to describe sex.
  It’s like saying “A black owns the shop.” Instead of “A black man owns the shop.”
  Notice how calling someone “a black” is kinda icky?

You want a trad wife? Get your sorry ass to work buying her cars, clothes, houses, furnishings so she can focus on making your home. Kids in private school, high class vacations, all of it.

Provider is a title that is earned and I doubt even a thousandth of these blowholes are up to the task of being a trad husband.

Thank you, I'd rather be a trophy husband than support a tradwife
Ah, see, i knew there was a trad wife catch.
Private schools. shudders
- The private school is the living room.
I’m not sure ML is the right place for you hehe
- A lifetime of experience has taught me the fastest way to poke through someone's hubris is to take their bullshit deadly seriously.
As long as it's mutually wanted. One of the women interviewed for the article started building her career later in the marriage, and cites her husband's anger at her increasing independence as a major factor in their divorce.
- That is something I'll never understand. Like, if I became incredibly ill or died or lost my fucking mind or something, I would be happy knowing my partner or spouse wasn't suddenly completely fucked and could manage without me on their own if it came to that. I think honestly that's what alot of what this comes down to. These selfish dudes are mad that women are now in a position to take or leave a relationship and hunt for one that will be a positive addition to their life instead of needing to be in one to be allowed to survive, which men, as a whole, have nearly universally only had the sole privilege of in society, and some apparently can't deal with that going both ways.
- One of my (social work) profs advised us this could happen. And then it did to me.
Not in that economy, no. That you can't afford a family with a single income anymore is one of the forces that lead to changing role models. Not that i think it's a bad thing.
Kids in private school, high class vacations, all of it.
The fuck is traditional about any of that?
Are you one of those people who sees a movie about rich people in the past and assume that's how you would've lived?

It's surprising to me that married people are falling for this shit. I thought it was just incels desperate for anything that might give them a chance or an excuse.

it isn't about being single, its about the modern hell world instilling extreme helplessness in vulnerable people, and they seek any answers whatsoever. the manosphere happily provides 'answers' in exchange for money
- It has also seeped into every aspect of male culture. You want to watch a YouTube show about cars? Sure. The first couple episodes are normal and then they start sliding in dumb shit.
  You listen to a podcast about working out? Same thing goes. It’s little stuff here and there. Sometimes it starts as a reoccurring joke, but it keeps happening until they actually believe.
  I also find there are a lot of young people who aren’t comfortable on computers and basically believe whatever they see on the internet, much like an older generation.
There are actors building influence who benefit by more males being this way. They target ladies too, but in different ways. They are determined and focused.

Just based on what I see women doing around me all the time, there were probably some warning signs. Looking for a dude that's "traditional" or whatever is asking for a dude that's going to see you like a form of livestock. It's partly a politics thing, but largely an assholes thing.

41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.

WTF those are both shockingly high.

I support Tate...
...Being locked in prison for the rest of his life.
- But first I would really like him to receive a serious public ass-beating, recorded for posterity. I feel like that would be worse for him than the prison time.
If you just translate the figures to "41% of young men, 12% of young women are stupid assholes", they make a bit more sense.
- Still, 41% sounds absolutely critical level, like we need to stop all society and have a conversation, because that is so uncool.
  Fucking 41... Like that is a plurality. That is a whole fucking lot of wrong people. That is entirely too many bros. I'm not sure I can impart just how disappointing that number is.
- There are many different ways to be a stupid asshole, and you can even do it while at the exact opposite end of the political spectrum.
There isn't anything wrong with a traditional worldview but it certainly doesn't fit most modern relationships. Either way I think all young men go through an idiot phase where it's easier to complain about the systems in place then to be introspective and improve yourself. I'm saying most people usually go through a redpill phase and if they are able to sympathize then it's usually a short phase. The bigger worry for me is that it seems a larger and larger amount of men are unable to sympathize with others.
- Depends what you mean by "traditional worldview". I'll go ahead and say young earth creationism shows a lack of openness to objective reality when it's not personally convenient.
  In the context I mean, what gets justified with tradition is behavior like putting on a fake persona when dating, pushing boundaries, disregarding the rights of strangers around them and generally being an entitled, eventually controlling dickwad. They'll say that's what men have always done, and boys will be boys or whatever, but I'm certain nobody had to "twist their arm".
  When I see one of those dudes dragging a girl around, I have to wonder if she's chasing a kink. That's not how you go about it, if so. 50 Shades of Grey was fiction.
- The bigger worry for me is that it seems a larger and larger amount of men are unable to sympathize with others.
  Not unable, unwilling. It requires them to be 'weak' and concede that they may be part of the problem. I say this as a man that had to work through some of this shit when I was young.
Rachel, who is in her 30s and lives in London, met her partner on the popular dating app Hinge, and was struck by his generosity. He insisted on buying her gifts and giving her cash to spend. She thought her now ex-partner was a “normal, decent guy”.
Yeah....
- I mean, it's a tale as old as time.
  Shitty males buy females thing to avoid being held accountable.
I disagree.
Usually it's the 'modern' women who have been convinced to be treated like livestock. Nothing very traditional about going to raves or wearing pasties.
- There's green-tea smelling book clubs too if that's more their speed, but a lot of people think raves are fun. Same for the pasties; they're an option, but it sounds like hipsters in a version of full Victorian dress are just as much of a thing. The central fact being that they get a choice.
  The various cultures around the world have many, often contradicting versions of traditionalism. My own tells a good story about women having "respect", but it's a version of respect that doesn't require much from men.
  Listen to a random country song. There's a party with cheap beer, where the women are just potential bedpost notches, but the protagonist goes to church on Sunday and feigns piousness, so they still get to be One of the Holy Ones™. A girl's dad shows up and defends her "honour", but it's implied he did the exact same shit when he was young, and at no point are her preferences considered at all. The song ends with a thinly veiled plug for the pickup truck company sponsoring the artist.
  It's easy to see why dudes who hew to that are just looking for a way to justify how shitty they always were, underneath it all. Because in practice I see that all the time, living where I do.

I think it’s a good strategy but it’s not fool proof. They’ll tell you what you want to hear and then slowly start pushing your boundaries. Or they’ll pretend to be one way only to get what they want out of you.
- Sure, but I don't think it's meant to be foolproof, it sounds like a great way to start
gives excessive gifts
Huge red flag. Becomes a tool of control (I was married into a wealthy family.)
The big thing is that they can change their personality after marriage - once you are trapped. There were red flags there, which I shouldn’t have ignored, but it was like night and day.
Mine started getting interested in stuff like religion - noticed that his pastor friend got to play WoW all day while the wife basically did everything.
How to pull them out of the bog, no idea.
For my part I've just confessed my ignorance of what's going on on the commercial web, and shared with them the kinds of conversations I'm have on the non-commercial parts (fedi, email, chats, smol web, etc), which are usually nicer and more productive.
Although to certain extent I still consider this here a form a social media... and I'm not actually sure that it's good for us past a certain number of people. It might be "more cacophony than community" to quote one of Matthew Graybosch's blog posts.
It is better here than on the mainstream social medias, though. That's for sure for sure.
EDIT anyway, that's a total aside. I just couldn't help picking up that one thread. Good comment. I love your approach.

Toxic masculinity, feeding itself, empowered by the forces of capital who desires culture war above class war.

I love just saying "toxic masculinity" anywhere online, even if you're deep in the bowels of Lemmy, you will get a few reactionary turds who just see the term and lose all cognitive ability to think and mash the downvote button between heated breaths and tears streaming down their faces.
edit: and it continues, very predictable. Seriously guys, just be honest if the term makes you feel shit, you will find truth by pursuing those feelings and the questions around them, literally you will figure out why you're actually unhappy. Don't pull back, push through. Yes, I am provoking, and if it's provocation that has an effect on you, that's a HUGE sign that you can figure out a big truth about yourself and the world if you spend like, 30 minutes in uncomfortable silence asking yourself "why" about things and being painfully honest in your replies until you hit bedrock.
- ^ This reply shows me you don't understand what men like Andrew Tate are selling. He's selling validation to these boys and men, and you're providing a perfect marketplace for that product to sell like hot cakes.
  When you reply like that to these people, the mental picture of grown men having hissy fits and "mashing downvote buttons with tears in their eyes" might feel good in the moment, but those men and boys aren't actually reacting like that. Instead, the message they get is they were right the whole time, that people like you really do just hate men and masculinity, and that people like Andrew Tate are the ones "on their side".
  I get that it feels good to trigger people you don't like, but all you're doing is making Andrew Tate's job easier. Don't you think he's already making enough money as it is?
God damit this sentence makes me want to blow my brains out. It's too fucking thick in bullshit. You ever notice how the right will just call someone a pedo or gang member and that really works. It's not like they go " he's just socioeconomic poverty based victim of modern prison system" like just get to that point. Andrew is a grown man who targets children.
- That's... Their point? Either you misread what they said or you wrote your response wrong.

You leave them.

Im in a bubble where these guys are like the most laughable parody of themselves so maybe I'm biased but... I mean nobody is taking this kind of stuff serious right? I mean cool, free speech and such but dumb behavior had consequences, right?

People absolutely take this stuff seriously. The problem is the most bone headed guys are the ones likely to fall for this stuff. Once they're sucked in it's hard to convince them otherwise.
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
- Yeah, I’m studying to be a teacher and have had several internships during my education.
  Young teen boys, 12-15, are into it. They aren’t a majority, but they exist. One of the students came to me and asked if I knew what the matrix was. He was really into redpill shit! Had many conversations with him and hope he hasn’t gone deeper.
They definitely are, more and more, it's the same as every popular movement. They pad the propaganda with legitimately good advice and some controversial but easily supportable facts. That makes the more controversial items easier to swallow.
It's probably 50/50.
50% of the people are using it as entertainment and laughing at/encouraging those who take it seriously. We can call them the 'trolls.'
50% of the people are actually taking it seriously and don't know any better. We can call them the 'tools.'
You caught on early, and rejected it. There are plenty of new recruits introduced every day, who are taking it seriously.

In the old days when you disappeared into a cult, you physically went to live with them and everything.

These days it’s “cult to go.” Good luck intervening and cutting off their link to the cult when the cult is speaking to them from their pocket.

I miss those days, they'd go be weird on their own and not drag the rest of us into this crap

there was plenty of warning signs for Years, even before the pandemic. if you look at how pickup artist operate, and then go on youtube. Tate isnt even a new phenemon, hes a culmination of the above problems. hes just the latest symptom, as was JOE ROGAN.

Agreed.
It's clear though what kind of males fall for these influencers; the ones without good male role models or father figures in their lives.
Why don't they have good male role models or father figures? I think it's because they feel they can only choose between 'cuck' and 'chad' so when their insecurity flares up, they instinctively go with 'chad.'
Balance is lost among men in our society. There's no 'firmness' anymore. Either men are pensive emo teens, or they're boisterous blowhards like tate.
Anyone in between is ignored and forgotten about.
Yeah but in the olden days they were on a print ad in the back of Popular Mechanics, not the leading talk show in the nation.

I literally just blocked an NSFW lemmit of misogynygonewild and it blew my mind it was even a thing. Fucking trash.

Cesspits like that should be cleansed with fire
What is a lemmit?
- I believe a bot/site that mirrors reddit subreddits to Lemmy communities. It's anything @lemmit.online

Its the Boisphere. No men are involved.

Get a new partner.. they're gone

Even if they come back. It's not worth the labour to hold their hand through that shit. Maybe their mom or dad can talk some sense into them, but I sure as shit wouldn't want to live with someone like that while they figure out how to screw their head back on straight.

To answer the headline: divorce, I hope.

Divorce is in many case the trigger. The MGTOW-community was/is a lot of divorced men who feel mistreated by society, and blame women for it.
- I remember being excited and thinking maybe I had found my people when I first heard about MGTOW thinking it would be dudes who realized maybe dating wasn't for them and instead were just focusing on improving themselves. Then I looked at their subreddit and no, just a shitton of misogyny.
When economic independence is rare, divorce is rare.
- I guess getting rid of no fault divorces helps that too
Yes. It is worth trying to address issues first, especially with kids/finances involved, but if nothing works divorce still does.
I would no longer recommend marriage tbh

Isn't tate already old news for the manosphere?

witch caused cognitive dissonance
Ahhh it was the witches all along
- Before we rush to judgment about witches. We really should test them to make sure that they are witches.

Just use a manometer.

i think if your husband has weird ideas about women you're supposed to argue with him or something

Ideally, you have these "arguments" well ahead of time before you marry someone who has fucked up attitudes about anyone, anywhere.
People can absolutely change and "wake up" to realize that the shit they're holding onto is going to cost them their future and they will absolutely change for the better when they care for someone else and want a better future. But not everyone is willing or capable of self-examination, and many are also not willing or capable of making changes.
Find out before you both have your names on a mortgage or carton of eggs together.
- I have for almost my entire life been entirely too accommodating of other people. My husband has some issues, but a lot of them are small, lack malice or unintentional. Such is human interaction. He is a self declared feminist, however its taken a few years of us being together before he started doing half the cleaning and things like his own laundry. We both work full time. Such is society.
  He smokes 🌳 daily, i smoke 🚬 infrequently. He hates that I do, says he wants a divorce if he catches me and is quite controlling about it tbh. So I've always hidden it from him, I usually smoke 10 a week when I'm smoking and when I dont smoke I go 3-24 months without one. Last night I realized I'm a grown ass woman being treated like a child and I'm enabling the behavior. So I told him I was going outside to smoke. He kicked up his normal fuss, but this morning he initiated a conversation about it calmly and we spoke about it like adults.
  In the same way that the patriarchy harms both men and women, misogyny is upheld by both men and women. Not to equal levels of course on either count, but im so proud of all the people, men and women, who can call this shit out. It took me entirely too long in this example.
  (Also lol at the carton of eggs joke)

Hmm. Follow the money people!

This seems like a ploy by therapists and divorce lawyers! Who else has to gain by this level of stupidity?

I mean i guess gene stealer cultist...But besdies them!

There are money people?
- They have a monocle and a white mustache!

The culture war swung too far in a certain direction between 2012-2023 and this is the inevitable result. I saw this coming from a mile away.

Can you give some examples? Do you mean the Supreme Court legalizing gay marriage in 2015? The #metoo movement in 2017? Black Lives Matter protests in 2020?
What do you think has gone too far?
- I applaud legalized gay marriage and BLM protests.
  No, it pretty much just comes down to demonizing men, constantly, to the point that they are not even allowed to stand up for themselves. Just standing up for men when they get generalized is enough to get you censored now.
  That's why you've lost gen z men. It's not some mystery.
- I agree with him, but I also respect his decision not to answer.
  Unfortunately, people like you can't stand when someone says something you don't like so you constantly try to pull them into a debate.
  Not everyone is worth replying to, regardless of how much they beg for a response.