Weaponizing ordinary devices violates international law, United Nations rights chief says
Weaponizing ordinary devices violates international law, United Nations rights chief says
Honestly, the real question to me is how many innocent people were maimed, injured, or killed in this attack. This is incredibly indiscriminate, even though the idea is that only the bad guys are holding the pages or walkie-talkies, but if they're in a cafe they're not the only ones getting hurt. Think of it as attaching an explosive to a thousand Hezbollah people, and then exploding them as they wander through a city. That's the true crime, the potentially disproportionate massacre of innocent civilians.
Agree, I am incredibly disturbed by the nature of this attack and the implications for how other countries might use this idea.
Honestly, the real question to me is how many innocent people were maimed, injured, or killed in this attack.
Quite a bit fewer than 0.1% of the individual detonations appear to have harmed anyone except the Hezbollah operative assigned to the pager, so this doesn’t actually appear to be a question. The attack was extremely discriminate and targeted.
but if they're in a cafe they're not the only ones getting hurt.
In every case in which one of these went off in a cafe, the intended target was the only one hurt.
That's the true crime, the potentially disproportionate massacre of innocent civilians.
But that isn’t what happened. The opposite happened.
In one sense this is much worse, and more terrifying than the run-of-the-mill IED's used by militant groups. Having to be suspicious of everything around you would be maddening. It's indiscriminate mass psychological warfare, where the collateral damage goes way beyond the people actually carrying the devices.
OK, I’m gonna tell a little story that we used to tell in my part of the country. In my part of the country they grow a lot of watermelons.
So there was this watermelon farmer who got upset that everybody kept sneaking into his fields at night and taking watermelons.
So he came up with his great idea that he put a sign at the edge of the field that said one of these watermelons is poison. Now he knew that no one could take a watermelon cause they wouldn’t know which one was poisoned. He was quite proud of this idea.
So we came back in the morning to see how his sign worked. And sure enough no watermelons have been taken overnight.
However, he noticed the number one on his sign had been crossed out and somebody had put two.
However, he noticed the number one on his sign had been crossed out and somebody had put two.
That is both genius and a total Bond villain origin story.
Imagine if China, Taiwan or Korea would start doing this shit. Or maybe they already have! Maybe the device you are reading this on would explode in the event of war!
In another thread I was also performing that thought experiment, specifically related to the possibility of Chinese hobby drones being banned for national security purposes, while at the same time possibly allowing Chinese made EVs to be sold in America. It's inconsistent if nothing else. A car would be a much more terrifying IED than a pager. Shame on Israel for showing the world that acts like this are not immediately condemned as acts of terrorism and unanimously rejected as being a bridge too far.
Edit: actually it looks like there may be consistency: https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/china/us-to-propose-ban-on-chinese-software-hardware-in-connected-vehicles/
How is it “indiscriminate” if solely Hezbollah operatives were targeted?
A booby-trapped baby stroller is indiscriminate - it goes off when anyone touches it, friend, foe, or child. Israel attacked the communications of its enemy and literally nothing else. That’s inherently discriminating between friend and foe.
It's indiscriminate because Israel doesn't know who is in proximity of the device when it explodes, or even if the target is nearby. It's no stretch to think one of the targets could have been frisking a journalist or aid worker when their device detonated.
That being said, the "indiscriminate mass psychological warfare" comment I made was about how the effect of blowing up common devices as an act of war will have negative psychological effects on everybody who was nearby and probably even those in Lebanon who were not nearby, and potentially even Lebanese people who were in other countries who have family back in Lebanon.
How is it “indiscriminate” if solely Hezbollah operatives were targeted?
Because said operatives were often within exploding distance of civilians when the pagers were detonated. Shrapnel, even from a small explosion, can be deadly and has a fairly large range. Especially if you don't have line-of-sight to your target before detonating the device; you have no idea what or who is nearby when it goes off.
"Explosive" and "targeted" generally don't go hand-in-hand.
Israel:
seen ✓✓
All you have to do to realize that this is a terrorist attack is to close your eyes and imagine the media response if Hezbolah did this to the IDF.
If they did it to the IDF, I doubt many would have an issue with it. Military is always a valid target in war.
If it was done to random civilians, then most would.
It all hinges on just how targeted the attack is, and how much you believe Mossad's claims that it was all Hezbollah. We've seen their claims on bombing Hamas militants, and I doubt everyone in those 8 floor residential buildings were all Hamas members.
Doubt.
If they had snuck explosives into cell phones of IDF soldiers and then detonated them in mass while the soldiers were at home with their families it would not be acceptable.
I totally agree that this attack was indiscriminate. I think part of the point was the psychological impact of being attacked that way. How could you ever feel safe again after knowing anything around you could be a small explosive device.
It is a huge escalation that will undoubtedly created another huge wave of terrorism. Israel has always been its own worst enemy.
We're talking double secret probation. Super cereal shit man.
Constantly wringing my hands at the lack of adults in leadership. Accountability ends atrocity.
A different analysis from an expert in international law. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/exploding-pagers-law/
Thanks for sharing this. My gut reaction is that that these attacks were unreasonable and careless in who they impacted and should be criminal. But it’s very interesting to read an analysis of the actual law - even if I don’t agree with it
It comes to the same conclusion regarding the illegality of the weapons, even if it's pretty lenient in its interpretation of how thousands of devices can be "reasonably expected" to all end up in the hands of combatants.
Attacking a civilian population of a country you're not at war with is a violation of international law.
And Isreal has done it at least nine times in the last year.
As if Israel suddenly is going to care about international law. They have been committing war crimes and crimes against humanity for a long time now. This is telling nazis "hey, what you are doing is bad mkay?" like they would give a fuck.
absolutely. i mean it is not as shitty as cutting of the breasts of women who attended that festival back then. but I do not understand how pagers are "ordinary devices". what a joke. and why does iranian ambassador have one?
Just because terrorists are doing horrible acts, doesn't mean you are free to do whatever you want. Crimes against humanity and war crimes do not have an asterisk saying "except when the enemy commits crimes too".
About the pagers, are they specifically made for the military? Or are they commercially available? Just because terrorists use them doesn't mean no one else does. There are still many hospitals for example using pagers. Does that make doctors terrorists or military?
Feels like increasingly that is the new reality for all of us, everything is a potential attack vector, even if it's much less lethal attacks. Data grabs, money grabs, attention grabs. Show me something weaponizable that isn't being exploited as one in one way or another.
Fucking this is not hard.
Either that is illegal, or the Unibomber was just.
Yes. But do pants! That would be fun....
ok sir your shoes go in this bin. We want your pants, underwear and belt in that other one. Those will be returned to you after the flight reaches Michigan.....
Oh. We're sorry sir, your luggage is here, but your pants, belt and underwear were flown to Michoacan. Very common occurrence. You may take this pair of paper pants with our Logo while we wait for several connection flights for your belongings...
Well yeah just add another war crime to the list.
I find this a far more compelling view. Trapping the equipment of enemy paramilitaries seems a very strange hill to die on to paint as a war crime. On the other hand, the haphazard distribution of the pagers and the lack of care taken to minimize civilian casualties absolutely suggests this was a war crime - just not for the reason of trapping communications devices.
Weaponry is a human right.
Uhm, drones? Hello?
Not to mention the tens of thousands of rockets Hamas made from water pipes, lamp posts, etc.
I'm pretty sure the meaning isn't that you aren't allowed to turn an ordinary item into a weapon. It's that you can weaponize ordinary items. If you make a pipe bomb, for example, it's pretty obviously a bomb now, and not an ordinary pipe. Basically, making it so people have to fear using ordinary items is what we typically call terrorism.
I don't like that word, because it's usually just used as a weapon against less conventional forces by states with more power, meanwhile the states typically still use fear to enforce a political agenda. In this case it's unarguably the bad kind of terrorism, and they should be held responsible for it.
Are those rockets sold as a water pipe to Israel?
UN is totally irrelevant. Next.
Many were not used by the military and the explosions happened during the day in uncontrolled circumstances. Many civilians got hurt.
under international law if a device is used for military transmissions it is a valid target and can be attacked.
I think this means that if an Israeli sells you a phone, they become a valid target for military strikes.
They weren’t “ordinary devices”, they were encrypted pagers manufactured specifically at Hezbollah’s request for their own use.
"Ordinary device" in this context means anything that does not immediately resemble an instrument of war.
Yup, and it seems like more and more that it wasn't explosives, but regular pagers tampered with to explode using parts they already contain as to not arouse suspicion.
It will be interesting to see how this impacts the reputation of Western electronics. There's already unverified reports of Middle East markets abandoning western built phones end masse for Chinese ones.
Also wait until this technique gets into other malicious actors hands and we start seeing this attack happen everywhere. I don't think Westerners understand what a Pandora's box they've opened.
"Yup, and it seems like more and more that it wasn't explosives, but regular pagers tampered with to explode using parts they already contain as to not arouse suspicion."
There's no way this can be the case. Regular pager batteries do not explode. At most they can catch fire, but they don't explode. There's no way there wasn't a high-grade explosive in each of the pages. The electronics may have been normal and triggered with regular software, but there had to be an explosive and a detonator in the pager.
Yup, and it seems like more and more that it wasn't explosives, but regular pagers tampered with to explode using parts they already contain as to not arouse suspicion.
Totally false.
What is a western-built phone? Practically all portable electronics are manufactured in Asia.
If it was possible for terrorists to explode cell phones in the US they would have already done so.
No one knew it was possible until now. Now every government on earth is going to put in overtime to figure out how it was done and id they're vulnerable.
I don’t get this. It’s war, there isn’t much law. You can have agreements between countries, but is it really law if it’s not enforceable?
It’s enforceable. A war between two countries does not exist in a vacuum. The whole rest of the world can impose sanctions against the violator.
Whether they will in this case is another matter entirely.
There's plenty of law of war.
But you're right, laws are worth northing if they're not followed or enforced.
If no-one is going to stop Hezbollah, why would they stop Israel?
There is international law and there are international war crimes. This could very well be a war crime. It needs to be investigated.
Well, that’s up to debate.
In war there are still rules of engagement and expectations about things like “child soldiers” and “civilian casualties” and “collective punishments” etc….
But also, how much to those rules actually stop people?
Which rules are worth breaking if they prevent open war and millions of deaths?
No idea. Some deep philosophising and rationalisations around all of it is required regardless of your stance
Yeah right...
Ukraine using publicly available camera Drones to drop grenades on russian invaders?
Bravo Ukraine! Very creative self-defending!!
Mossad putting explosives in items terrorists ordered to specifically to coordinate their terrorrism?
Booh! Not allowed, bad Israel!!
I don't think they're talking about buying something normal and turning it into a weapon. But buying something normal and getting a weapon instead.
You do know that Israel is not fighting against an invading force, right? That might be a slight difference when it comes to morality.
Men with tactical coordination, trained and armed with automatic weapons, crossed an internationally recognized border by land, sea, and air. They launched thousands of ballistic missiles, killed, captured and held territory, and have repeatedly given assurances that they will do the same again and again.
If that's not an invasion then we are just arguing semantics.
You do realize Hezbollah even having possession of those rockets was in violation of UN resolutions. The fact they've been launching them for nearly a year now is also a violation. Israel's actions here are far more justifiable than Gaza.
Oh goody, more genocide apologist scum to block!
Israelis are the terrorists.
Do something about it, then.
Oh man this letter is going to be worded so sternly!
"This letter is so VIBRANT with EXTREME ANGER that it will explode... but only metaphorically."
Respectfullysubmitted,United Nations
I bet they're gonna BLAST them! In a literary sense
this is the ultimate test of these institutions and their letters just shows they failed.
What is the UN human rights chief supposed to do about it?
He did all that was in his power:
They could all say they are going to disband if Israel doesn't stop. Why even have the UN if they can't do anything
Or better yet expel isreal
They are...
They've had arrest warrants out for a while, but they do t have their own police force to enforce it
It relies on member states arresting them when they enter their country. It why Bibi hasn't been going anywhere besides America. Biden is one of the few leaders willing to side with Israel over the UN
Aren't there arrest warrants against George W. Bush from like 20 years ago? This is just more talk that won't be backed up by any meaningful action because of how trivially easy it is to avoid going to these countries.
The US will veto any action.
It's them you should be criticizing. It's always them or Russia/China for the other team.
You won't be so smug when people stop buying iPhones.