shootwhatsmyname @ shootwhatsmyname @lemm.ee

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18

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305

Joined

2 yr. ago

Do you think we should remove communities and users that share disinformation?

Ok, this thread was about blocking/removing disinformation so I figured that’s what we were talking about. Do you have any stance on disinformation and how it should be handled on lemm.ee then?

I’d say defining disinformation and discussing how we decide something is disinformation are some great step towards finding a solution

I think disinformation is an opinion specifically towards the content or subject of a post or community. I don’t think we shouldn’t be removing users based solely on someone’s opinion of their content. If you’re suggesting removing users from this instance that share disinformation, I’d love to know how you conclude something is disinformation

Correct me if I’m wrong, but that sounds like this is about convenience then. I’m all for convenience, but completely removing content for everyone on a general-purpose instance because someone thinks it is harmful is not ok. That is suddenly declaring your opinion as everyone else’s absolute truth. Saying “you should not see that” is great. Saying “you can never see that” is censorship, and in this case it would be censorship based on a certain opinion.

I propose Lemmy adds the ability for users to label communities and posts when they create them with a content tag of some sort. Users could also suggest adding or removing a label from posts or communities as they browse. This would make content more refine-able and searchable for users/admins and give us each the ability to limit certain types of content we don’t want to see. It would also help solve the NSFW label issue where someone is okay with gore but not with nudity.

Hey, it’s okay to break down a metaphor if I don’t think it’s applicable to the conversation.

Yes, totally I agree with you, I think admins should review reported content and do some investigation if needed.

I guess I have a problem with removing users and communities based on someone’s opinion of the content itself. Vote manipulation, brigading, creating multiple accounts to push agenda, repeated automated posting, and even organized trolling like you mentioned are not direct opinions on the content posted. They are clearly defined and relatively easy to identify. “Disinformation,” “recognizable sources,” and “hot button political issues” are direct opinions about the content or subject of a post or community. They are not clearly defined and differ greatly from person to person.

I asked you to suggest a definition or criteria of disinformation to move us from the “what” to the “how.” Thinking about how this might be regulated practically might help you understand why I think it’s problematic to remove users and communities based solely on someone’s opinion of their content.

What would be the difference between a disinformation community being hosted on this instance and one being hosted on another federated instance?

From the very brief statement admins made about the removal, it sounds like those users might have been creating multiple accounts and manipulating the platform more than once. I never saw any comments from admins on their stance towards right wing disinformation communities.

The “bugs” you’re referring to are actual people, and “your house” is my house too. We are both anonymous users on a general purpose instance shared with ~15k other people. If you start removing people from our house, and I don’t want you to remove those people, I think it’s fair to have a good-faith conversation about this.

How do you suggest determining whether or not something is considered disinformation?

Remember, this is a global general-purpose instance with a wide variety of backgrounds and worldviews.

With that in mind, I think I should have the choice to see information if I want to—even if someone else determines that it is incorrect, right?

From my perspective, you can learn extremely valuable things from the corrupt (the horrific history of my country for example) just as much as the good. Removing information like this effectively removes my ability to see the full picture. By definition, this is censorship. It is removing content based on someone’s opinion of the content itself.

If your going to tell me that your definition of disinformation is 100% truth, I’d love to hear how you got to that conclusion.

That community was horrific and I’m really glad it was dealt with, but this raises some big-picture moderation questions that will need to be answered moving forward. For example: What is the difference between sharing an extreme opinion v.s. sharing misinformation/disinformation on lemm.ee? Unless admins make an executive decision in the meantime, I think it would be useful to have a productive discussion on criteria for content like this because there will hands down be more situations like this down the road.

Removing or silencing people as in removing users or communities from lemm.ee if their content is determined as disinformation.

And I don’t think communities or users with strong opinions should be removed or banned from a general purpose community. I think vote manipulation, brigading, repetitive automated posting, multiple accounts, and other ways of manipulating the system should be prohibited.

So, how do you personally determine that something is disinformation, and how to you distinguish this from your own opinion? I’m genuinely trying to understand your perspective here

Yes, I think it matters greatly when making decisions to completely remove or silence other people. What’s your process for determining if something is disinformation?

Do you think it’s possible you or someone else might be wrong about something being disinformation?

A few things wrong with what you said:

1. You did use the word “misinformation” in the comment I was replying to:

We’re talking about a community that is dedicated to posting misinformation and apparently trolling.

2. The definition of misinformation I used in my previous comment includes “deliberate deception” and matches your definition of disinformation, so if I’m not mistaken we are actually on the same page there and my points are still relevant to the discussion.

I totally agree there needs to be a good way to report communities to admins. I also think vote manipulation, making multiple accounts, brigading, automated posting, and other ways of manipulating the system to push an opinion should be prohibited.

What I don’t agree with is removing communities for “disinformation.” What’s happening is:

1. Those community mods banned you because you posted “disinformation”
2. You want the community removed because they are posting “disinformation”

I think there’s an inherent flaw with our definitions of truth here. If you say one thing is truth, and some community mods say another thing is truth, how do we decide which voice is silenced on lemm.ee?

This might be a hard one to digest, but please genuinely consider it: I think we are mis-labeling opinion and calling it truth without realizing it. Calling your own opinion absolute truth is a very dangerous game to play when you are making decisions for other people (read history to learn more). And, like I initially pointed out, moderating an entire instance based on opinion doesn’t seem to line up with a “general purpose” instance like lemm.ee in my opinion. Do you think that’s plausible?

I know you said you don’t want to discuss further, but it’s hard to learn from you if you don’t converse or answer questions. If you have specific thoughts or disagreements on any points I’ve made, I’d appreciate hearing them

Are you sure your definition of disinformation is absolute truth? Maybe someone else comes along with a slightly different definition of disinformation. Which one of you makes the calls?

Why do you think this should be a global policy regulated by several admins as opposed to something we can each do ourselves?

Edit: Hey if you’re downvoting, consider contributing to the discussion by sharing why you don’t like this comment

I love how it starts at 0

We already talked about trolling on this thread, no need for examples

This is helpful, can we turn you into a bot?

Nah man, sorry if I miscommunicated that. I’m genuinely trying to have a productive discussion on what admins are responsible for and how to handle similar situations down the road

Well obviously lol, I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that

Edit: I’d appreciate a genuine reply to any of my comments. If you’re downvoting, please consider contributing to the conversation and sharing why you disagree so we can have a productive discussion.