TheOubliette @ TheOubliette @lemmy.ml

Posts

0

Comments

1,482

Joined

2 yr. ago

Okay, so you're okay with genocide in Xinjiang

This is a lie and I will not respond until it is retracted.

I don't want to continue this conversation.

Then why write 3 more paragraphs?

You are lying.

Ah yes, unjustified accusations of lying. Great.

Read the letter.

I read it yesterday and have already critiqued it several times.

It says more eloquently than I could, what is the massive difference between "everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide weapons for which are supplied by] the Biden-Harris administration," which of course makes perfect sense and is something I wholeheartedly support, after the important edit I've made on your behalf,

Rather than playing around editing my quotes, why not just be direct and honest? It sounds like you are trying to say you don't think the Biden-Harris regime is committing genocide and that it should be more restrictiveky stated as " supplying weapons". Unfortunately, this would be both false and misleading.

The US does not merely "supply weapons", it donates them. Israel is wholly dependent on the US for these weapons. The genocide could not happen without them and all parties know this. In the middle of genocide, the Biden-Harris regime continues to provide unrestricted weapons to Israel, including bypassing Congress to ensure that there is no pause or lack of stockpiles.

And of course, providing weapons is not the beginning or end of US support for the genocide. It is an effort to list the many different ways. The US provides logistical support to Israel, including military support. That "aid" pier? It was used as part of the "rescue operation" for a handful of Israelis where hundreds of Palestinians were killed. Israeli bombing intel? The US is flying P8 Poseidons all over the regikn, particularly Lebanon, and shares satellitr imagery on a constant basis. The Houthis standing in solidarity with Palestine? The US ramps up its own genocidal campaign against them (remember Yemeni kids?) and thank God they are failing. The US is sending not just THAAD batteries, but personnel to run them. The US strongarms support for Israel as best it can and threatens those who work against the genocide in Gaza. They immediately started a campaign against South Africa once they brought allegations to the ICJ. The US continues to make direct and substantial monetary donations to the Israeli state. Domestically, the US cracks down on protests against the genocide. They send cops to intimidate and beat us (funded by Biden!), university administrations funded by the feds expel and deport students. The Biden-Harris administration just designated Samidoun a terrorist organization. Samidoun organizes orisoner support and Gaza solidarity peotests around the country. While Samidoun denies the allegation, the claim is that they support the PFLP, which is a resistance organization similar to the ANC, which the US labeled, along with its member Joseph Mandela, a terrorist organization.

Please understand that you have much to learn on this topic. And when you have much to learn, I think the bare minimum is that you, by default, oppose genocide.

versus everyday Palestinians who are okay with the utter disaster even beyond the present unspeakable disaster, that would be Trump coming to power.

The heads of NGOs and party insiders are not "everyday", that is obviously my point. It is conspicuous that this is their list.

I looked up some polls, I looked up who are some of the people on this list and their background. You're wrong, and lying. I don't even need to speak on it,

It is generally good practice to support accusations of lying and incorrectness with a rationale, maybe even evidence.

because as a non-Palestinian I don't have the authority on it that the people who already wrote a letter for you do. It's already been said.

I don't remember seeing, "TheOubliette is lying and wrong" in that letter. Maybe you can point me to which line it is on?

But please, don't tokenize Palestinians. You have a responsibility to be against genocide yourself, to become informed and not lash out. You cannot rely on any Palestinian to do this for you, let alone allow yourself to be manipulated by a list of party insiders and NGO heads. Be among the people. Read the history. Understand the violence.

If you want to keep talking to me, let's talk about: Is genocide in Xinjiang a red line?

I will gladly discuss this in a different thread but I have decided that this would be a distraction in this one. Please center the genocide of Palestine with your words and actions.

I do not live in China and cannot do any advocacy related to Xinjiang. Though I will point out that there is not a genocide there. By now you should be able to recognize the differences. The mass killings, the videos, the diaspora, the intense censorship. We could discuss the ridiculous think tank and fake university apparatus that sold that lie with the US State Department, but to be frank, it is disgusting to distract from opposition to the genocide of Palestinians with this lazy attempt at a gotcha. Personally, I think you should apologize.

I already know what your answer's going to be, I'm just asking to highlight what your real goal here is.

My real goal is to advocate against normalization of genocide in the US. I have organized actions and protests to this effect for over a year.

Do your best to at least not believe your own bullshitting.

It's not false that Trump would be even worse though, having encouraged Netanyahu to be even more brutal than he is.

Netanyahu already has unconditional material support for the genocide from the Biden-Harris administration and they help run interference quite competently both internationally and domestically. They would still have you believe they are working for a "ceasefire" while celebrating the assassination of negotiators and sending unlimited JDAMs to bomb children in refugee camps.

There is no worse. They are far more competent at this.

Though again, you should be against genocide and not support genociders. It is not strategic to nirnalize genocide. It is not smart tactics to be a guaranteed lever pull even up to genocide.

I know this kind of electoral pragmatism feels a bit disgusting, but the cure for that is to get politically active outside of the electoral system, in addition to keeping the worst candidate out at election time.

It is not pragmatic at all. It is just the lesser evil argument that Dems always use to sheepdog people with a conscience into helping them out. It is a one-way street, as they never actually have to do anything at all that you demand, they are, correctly, treating you as a guaranteed cote. They will just send their PR teams at you.

We are in this position right now because of this "pragmatism" that prevents any notion of accountability or principal or the idea that you should be able to make a demand and have it reflected in policy. The genocide in Gaza is very unpopular at least in polls. The reason the political class does not follow this popular will is that you are not perceived as any kind of threat. You gladly give away all leverage and announce you will always do so, even up to voting for genocide!

And this is just disempowerment at the level of an individual. We are of course much more powerful when we organize together and build towards leverage. But that must be done through organizations and cannot happen through me, an individual, telling you that you have a moral responsibility to work against and never for genociders.

Genocide is the worst thing and should be a red line. Please do your best to not help erase that red line.

Do you have a plan to radicalize enough people to topple the current regime by election day?

Why do I need to?

Or is your plan to tell me that I shouldn't care that Trump is openly allied with people who want to commit genocide against queer people like me?

You should have solidarity with marginalized people facing genocide, not fall into the trap of pitting yourself against them because the political class threatens you. An injury to one is an injury to all.

Do you have a plan for your queer friends if he wins?

A plan? Friend, I have been organizing for trans liberation for years, probably longer than you have been politically aware. We will do the same work as always.

Would you have me see their deaths as permissible if he wins?

Of course not. Though I am not sure exactly which deaths you are referring to, nor the mechanism.

Or inevitable?

That is a difficult question to answer when I don't know what you are specifically referring to. Many deaths of marginalized people would be preventable if we defeat oppression. Most are the product of policy and deprivation accumulated over decades of control under both parties. My homeless trans friends are not having a good time right now. They live in a blue city in a blue state under the Biden-Harris administration. One died earlier this year for reasons attributable to the material deprivations I mentioned before. They had a better life when Trump was in power and there were larger unemployment payouts and efforts to house people.

Is your message of radicalization "you might die but it's fine because the other government that wouldn't have killed you was also fascist"?

The only person pitting marginalized people against each other here is you, friend.

If you support a genocider candidate, you undermine opposition to the genocide.

Your question is for "straight males", so those answering it are implicitly saying, " I am a straight male".

This is a subset of the population, so if you wanted to identify a user here, this would be a ckue. It would be useless on its own, but I'd they share more clues over time, they may reveal themselves accidentally to someone trying to fix them. Examples:

• The city or state they live in.
• Their age range.
• Their ethnic identity.

Just that much info, which people will easily expose if they answer questions like this, could be enough to identify someone. There are only so many straight 23 year old dudes from Guam living in a particular suburb of Baltimore.

We should protest and take action, but vote for those who will make things less bad.

The Biden-Harris administration is committing this genocide. "Less bad", friend, they are doing the worst thing.

Our system is fucked, but making yourself effectively invisible doesn't help.

Given the extent to which Dem voters rely on personal moralism, I think that "don't vote for genocidera" should be enough. You are complicit if you vote for a person doing genocide.

But if you prefer to think this is about strategy, what do you think makes your interests more relevant? Being a loudly guaranteed lever pull for the party even when you acknowledge they are doing a genocide, or someone that will, at least some of the time, actually withhold their vote on a stated principal?

It is actually your logic that leads to irrelevancy. It is logic handed down by party PR ghouls and they repeat it because it works: it means they don't need to listen to you, they can just convince you to disempower yourself!

If your vote doesn't got for one of the two parties you are worth as much as someone who doesn't exist.

I disagree, but even if I didn't, a vote complicit in genocide is worse than not voting at all.

Do not normalize or support genociders.

Re: reducing harm, genocide is as harmful as it gets and the candidate you are telkjng people to support is an active part of the ongoing genocide. The idea that you would be reducing harm by advocating for that is absurd.

You should, of course, engage in meaningful resistance, but those who rationalize voting for genociders are not the people who do that. This is a barrier to action, it is complacency.

The names are listed. Most are Palestinian.

Most are not labeled as Palestinian. Some are from Orgs that say Palestinian in the name, but that ia not the same thing by a long shot.

I’m glad you feel empowered to judge who are the real Palestinian voices

Yes it is the overwhelming number of everyday Palestinians demanding the end of genocide carried out by the Biden-Harris administration. It is the number of Palestinians I have personally turned out to actions that is far larger than this list. And that is just my personal experience in one place. They had to pad their numbers with none Palestinians and throw the net across an entire staye, focusing on NGOs. Yes I do get to judge this PR bullshit. It is just basic critical thinking and knowledge of the context. You should judge this bad-faith tokenization as well.

who gets to speak

I have never told anyone whether they get to speak. Please kindly retract and apologize for this invented falsehood.

and who’s a “largely self-interested climber”

Yes it is the heads of Democratic Party - associated NGOs and party orgs. If you have any experience with these kinda of organizations you will be fully familiar with how they operate.

who feels that talking about the genocide in Gaza and playing up their Palestinian heritage is a really good way to get ahead in American politics.

Such NGOs and party organizations are constant feeders for tokenizing marginalized identities and promoting party loyalists with those identities. This is in no way new nor is it rare. This is basic party politics for the last 60 years.

Can you tell me more about some of these individual self-interested climbers?

As the head of Dem-associated NGOs they will inevitably be exactly that. That is how you gain and retain those positions and ensure continual funding for you and your staff. I have both worked for and opposed and radicalized workers from these kinds of organizations for many years. Generally speaking, they keep a low profile outside of their official actions that are usually relatively tempered. They are either protecting their org and position or they are planning to run for office and are absolutely obsessive about how their career and "past activities" will appear. Fundamental material interests dictate behaviors that anyone who has actually worked in these spaces will immediately recognize. It is conspicuous how this list is curated.

Some that you know, who and why specifically you already know that they’re not worth listening to?

Why do I specifically need to know Arizonan NGO heads to know how they operate? I have lived and operated in many states, it is the same all over.

I’m sure you wouldn’t accuse someone of selling out their own country in the middle of a genocide just because of some vague notions (“you will recognize the type”)

They don't need to think of it as selling out. Many will not. People like this rationalize their self-interest with feeling like they're fighting the good fight. But they ultimately know that this list is an exercise in party loyalty and they know who butters their bread.

"You will recognize the type" is not a vague notion. It is understanding a subclass of our society, the heads of party-connected NGOs, which is 100% not your average person. It is as if you saw a letter of 50 latino CEOs telling you that lower wages are better for latinos. Are you just going to accept that or are you going to understand that CEOs are bound to profit-driving organizations that benefit from paying less for work? Do you need to know the CEOs personally to understand their material interests and social role? Does every one of those CEOs need to be twirling a mustache and cackling all the while? Can some of them be true believers that are also self-interested and have and maintain their positions because of how they function in the system? I've also known CEOs. Most think of themselves as good people that are very smart

You clearly have some specific reason you can identify these specific people as being dishonest, when they sign this letter. Right?

Please stick to what I actually say, thank you.

In what way is that the same logic as my argument? I am not voting for misogynists.

This is a list of people in Democratic Party orgs or associated NGOs, not normal people. And they had to pad their numbers by opening it up to not just Palestinians, buy "Arabs, Progressive Democrats, and Community Leaders".

This is a pretty standard part of the Dem playbook by now. They did this kind if thing to support the Dem position in favor of more cops and funding for cops despite pledges to defund.

Not true. That is the self - disempowerment that these kinds of messages are meant to promote. But you can do more than and something other than vote for genociders and tell other people to vote for genociders.

You can deligitimize support for genocide, for example. That is a small thing to do, but it I'd also what this self-disempowerment is intended to prevent. Beyond that, you can join pro-Palestinian orgs that identify the US and Israel as the agents of genocide and who work to build power based on coalition-building, mass engagement, and education rather than NGO-style funding and bureaucracy and self-promotion for its leadership.

Yes, absolutely. One must work for justice, not support those who actively work against us.

Unfortunately it is not that. Notice the description of the letter signatories and their associations.

First, it is not just Palestinians. It is likely they would have 10% of the signatories if they had that requirement. It is Palestinians, Arabs, "Progressive Democrats", and "Community Leaders".

Second, it is the usual constellation of party groups and the heads of NGOs, I.E. people heavily personally invested in the party apparatus and toeing the line.

While I am sure some feel all kinds of negative emotions, at the end of the day these are largely self-intrtested climbers. You will recognize the type if you do work in this space. They always pop up when you try to organize substantial changes, they cooedinate with the party for PR purposes.

What is the one issue?

The US is already fascist, the dictatorship is just of the ruling class rather than a single individual and their functionaries. It is currently getting you to rationalize supporting people committing genocide.

You can do something else: you can deligitimize support for genocide and do work against it.

You cannot improve on it by giving unconditional support to those committing the genocide.

You should not normalize genocide by voting for any genocider candidate, nor publicly rationalizing doing so.