TheOubliette @ TheOubliette @lemmy.ml

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Yes! Thisis from when there was a primary fight for Bernie and there were a lot of new people trying to figure out how things work and organize. The DSA in the state did a decent job organizing people to follow the primary process to gain seats exactly by the rules. Dems fought them for years and years, making it very clear that there is no space in the party for any left contingent with any influence. The first thing they did was mass quit and then take/hide the funds. This was from the "unity" group in the state, too, lmao.

I had to go back and google a bit to find examples as I followed this in real time, more or less. I'm sure there are better ones. But here are some examples.

An article from 2021 talking about how the bureaucrats in the party mass-quit: https://theintercept.com/2021/03/08/nevada-democratic-party-dsa/

And a liberal follow-up of how the party reasserted itself two years later: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/democratic-socialists-swept-power-nevada-judith-whitmer-rcna72905

And a neo-Trotskyist take that from both periods: https://socialistcall.com/2021/04/24/dsa-democratic-party-nevada-takeover/ and https://socialistcall.com/2023/08/02/independent-party-dsa-convention-proposal/ . If you're not used to neo-Trotskyists, one of the things they love to do is write long essays and what "should be done" without funneling frustration into practical work. But they do have okay insider info sometimes.

And more neo-Trotskyists lol sorry for listing so many, other groups with better ideas are generally dismissive of the attempt and don't write long-winded articles on it like Trots do: https://www.socialistalternative.org/2023/06/29/pulling-out-the-rug-what-happened-after-dsa-and-bernie-supporters-took-over-the-nevada-democratic-party/

It's an important lesson that unfortunately must be taught over and over again, viscerally, for people to actually believe it: liberals will fight the left far harder than they will fight overt reactionaries.

You know what, no. To hell with that. I’m not going to sit here and let you accuse me of using groups as some kind of pawn when I’m out there busting my ass multiple times a week in earthquake and flood clean-up efforts and, the rest of the time working with special needs children. I don’t need to PROVE to you that I care about people, and I don’t care for your implication that I’m some political shill.

Yes, you do need to sit there, because I am going to tell you, directly and honestly, when you are pitting marginalized groups against one another in support of your political candidate. It is not my fault that you are doing that while volunteering to help disaster victims. You are also very much guilty of making up some bullshit to attack me with, which is also not my fault and I do get to push back on you when you do it, and you should apologize for it and retract it.

The main thing I’ve learned in my years of doing this is that the daily work of individuals helping EACH OTHER is the only thing that really makes a difference for people in this world, and I will PROUDLY STAND by the fact that picking the governments that, if not facilitating that, at least don’t stand in its way, is the only humanitarian decision you can make.

The US government is genociding the people of Palestine via its proxy in Israel. The genocide is fully dependent on US support, particularly arms and financial contributions. That makes a difference in this world for the people living in Gaza getting burned alive in refugee camp hospital beds. And you are deflecting from your vociferous support for the people doing that.

Handing power to people who don’t see people as PEOPLE in the hopes of SOMEDAY getting some nebulous, undefined government led by someone you can’t even NAME yet that MIGHT come about in 4 years isn’t doing that.

Do you think the Biden-Harris candidates see Palestinians as people? Really? As they are genocided by an ethnic supremacist apartheid state that requires their constant funding and support?

C'mon. This entire project depends on the dehumanization of Palestinians. It actually requires their dehumanization among all who consent to it, which will just vary by degree and directness.

Take your self-righteous accusations and shove them, my friend.

I am correct on this and you are not. I have had no need to fib or avoid inconvenient facts. Do some introspection and make yourself consistent. And please stop telling other people to vote for a genocider.

The current administration is not advocating for a ceasefire, they are just telling you that they are. They have redefined the meaning of the term to mean full surrender and occupation for Gaza and all the while have been providing unconditional material support for Israel, including when they kill the negotiators for the resistance.

This is something that Harris is particularly complicit in, she was a major part of the push in March-June for this redefinition of ceasefire.

This is also why ceasefire rhetoric was always very weak. It is just so easy to coopt. The newer line on ending arms to Israel is much better.

While taxes show up on a balance sheet somewhere, the MIC is funded by financial magic and imperialism. If committing tax fraud would help the cause I would probably do it, but I really don't think it does.

I'm happy to continue this discussion in another thread or via DM, as I would prefer to center Palestinians and their plight and not your interest in finding fictitious hypocrisy. Let me know if you make a thread.

Unconditional support for genocide cannot be made any more maximalist. There is no BadB to add.

I’m aware of literally everything you are talking about but I have historical context that you apparently lack. Look up what happened to socialists in nazi germany.

I don't need to look it up, of course. Who knows where you got this ides that I don't know history. Maybe you should just ask instead of presuming? They were killed and oppressed and organized resistance as partisans.

We need to stop the fascists before they take power or everything gets worse. Things can fucking get worse.

Stop the fascists by doing what?

Remember what the various left factions did in the 192ps and 1930s? How did Hitler become chancellor?

I do need to say that the US is not like Germany leading up to the Nazis, though. If it has similarities to Germany it is Germany from the late 1800s, before they lost status in WWI. But even that doesn't make sense because the Germany of the late 1800s had a much larger left than the US. The important factor here is that the US is not an embarrassed former imperialiat nation in decline, it is the dominant global superpower overseeing and causing most of the war and intentional death on the planet. Why are you worried about Hitler when you are voting for Himmler while he does a genocide? That is not fighting fascists!

My inclination is damage limitation not some bullshit ideal.

Being against genocide is a bullshit ideal? Tell me more.

There are two options on the table, and I voted for Harris because I love my trans brothers and sisters, my many migrant friends, my wife who is a disabled immigrant.

There are, of course, more options on the table. Third party candidates and leaving it blank. You did not have to vote for someone that is committing a genocide, let alone rationalize it as just a decision to help marginalized people. You almost seem proud of it.

I hate Harris and Biden for what they are doing to migrants and Palestinians.

Not enough to not give them exactly what they want and tell others to do the same.

Trump would make literally everyone worse off. So

I don't think Trump would have had your consent to genocide the Palestinian people. I think you would have had this "bullshit ideal" and there is a decent chance I could have gotten you to mobilize at least once and foment a crisis re: unilateral executive arms donations (which Biden is doing BTW). I don't think Trump would have been as competent at coordinating European complicity, likely would have thrown a wrench in the works.

I think you are overlooking material impacts and are focused on the reactionary aesthetics.

PS Dems are promoting at least one transphobic D politician now. They will shift right in this just like they now embrace the border wall, introduced and fought for a harsh right wing immigration bill, and are tiptoeing around mass deportation discourse.

One if the reasons they can do all of this is that they don't need to earn your vote. Ever. You will even vote for them when they commit genocide. Unmoored by any attempt to organize demands they will do whatever they think is best for their donors and can't be managed by PR goons. And you are helping, not just with your own vote, but in justifying it to others and by being shitty to those who oppose genocide with a coherent, principled stance.

So I will take my meager power at the ballot box to oppose fascism. Outside of the ballot box I will oppose the democrats for the genocidaires they are.

You are contradicting yourself because you are telling everyone here that what you did was good and right and aligned with opposing fascism. If you want to vote for a genocider and never tell anyone to do the same I would accept that compromise.

This totally wasn't you saying I'm taking a bigoted view of Palestinians and demonstrating it by showing me what it would look like if I was talking about Latinos.

I know what I said with my Latino Ceos for Lower Latino Wages toy example but I still have trouble understanding how this is calling you racist.

The point of the example is that this letter is tokenizing PR. It does not represent Palestinians. One reason for this is the absurdity of trying to treat Palestinians are a homogenous group, which is implicit in the responses to this. The purpose of this letter is for Dem campaigns to be able to weaponize Palestinian identity to say, "look Palestinians support us!" Nevermind that it is a handful and they are basically all party insiders and the heads of NGOs.

The example of Latino CEOs is for you to focus on the tokenization and how you would spot it in a different context. Tokenization of an ethnicity is inherently racist, sure, the only conclusion here is that if you think the Latino CEO actions I provided questions for were racist, you should also think that tokenizing Palestinians in service of a genocidal candidate is racist.

I may be an idiot, but I'm not that stupid.

Okay well your interpretation was incorrect or at least there is nothing unfair in what I said.

You're just a troll and this conversation is over.

Well bye then, I guess.

Acknowledging that in a world of 10 billion people, groups do not always have the same overlapping interests or that the best course of action for the most people does not always correspond with the best course of action for one group in particular does NOT equate to pitting groups against each other.

We both know that is not how you framed it. It was not a vague generalization, it was an emphatic accusation, a lie, in fact, about specific groups I was abandoning.

I work in organizations that do solidarity work. Not any org that says "support the genocide of Palestine for LGBTQ!" Nor any org that says, "down with the gays for Palestine!" Though the latter doesn't really exist, there is no correlary to the division of the marginalized that you are forwarding among those fighting for Palestinian liberation. In fact, my usual org for doing work for Palestine is very gay and very good on gender.

Shame on you for lying and shame on you for trying to disrupt solidarity among the marginalized. Queer people are not your pawns for pithy genocide apologetic zingers.

That is a childish oversimplification that borders on anime protagonist morality, and unfortunately, the real world doesn't have writers who ensure that there are perfect solutions to be found if everyone involved is just stubborn enough.

I think you should do some introspection regarding what is childish and oversimplifying given your habit of ignoring almost everything I say and then making things up to attack instead.

So, your argument boils down to... Trump and Kamala Harris have the same attitudes towards preventing violence against queer people?

It doesn't, no. I said nothing like that. I would expound on that topic but I think it is counterproductive to entertain things I didn't say.

Or are you arghuing he would be better than her at protecting the lives of trans people?

I am confused by your conclusions. Please refer to the things I said that led you to this conclusion. I think you are struggling to rationalize your perspective with mine, but I have a very different idea of power and electoralism than you do.

Yeah I'm not defending this system you'll note earlier I pointed out that they are genociders. I lamented that this is the reality we live in.

Yes, the system must be overturned.

I am an anarchist, a syndicalist and a marxist. I am in favor of the revolution.

Nice! Good to meet you.

I also believe that mass murder is something that should be avoided whenever possible and that morality is affected by context. That the morality of sending one vote alone, one vote that does nothing to hurt the cause of revolutionary socialism

I agree with the idea of individual voting to be a bourgeois concern. I would gladly go on at length about building power in other, better ways, at least at another time.

I am intentionally focusing on a bourgeois moral argument because it gets to the core of how this audience thinks and how they are forgiving themselves for supporting genocide. Their identities are wrapped up in being the good people, and isn't that, then at least the smart people doing their best to limit bad things. This is why the people who respond never address what I say directly, they just flail around looking for reasons to attack me or make some things up to make themselves feel right or try to make it about their advanced mathematical understanding of a lesser evil argument (that is a joke).

I focus in the bourgeois moralism for one simple reason: to agitate against normalization of genocide. Organizing work happens outside of a place like Lemmy Dot World.

Regarding your last point, there is something you should understand about what is happening here given your identification with the left. Liberals are announcing exactly what level of depravity they will accept for their political class. This one has the filter of racism and xenophobia to libricatw that process, but it is crystal clear: along this oath, there is no bottom. Consider what that means as US hegemony breaks down and climate change ramps up. Dems have already pivoted right in immigration and the climate. This is exactly the kind of thinking that will prevent the concept of revolution from even getting off the ground. You will be labelled a terrorist and your life forfeit by people with this attitude. Just like the genocide of Gaza, they will tell themselves and you that their hearts go out, but unfortunately you chose to belong to a terrorist org and it is actually funny that a Proud Boy shot you.

can be positive in that it works to prevent the status quo from being replaced by a significantly worse one that results in mass death of many more people.

This is "harm reduction" and lesser evil logic that is incompatible with the traditions you have identified with. It is also short-sighted. What do you think the trajectory is for a political class whose voters are all automatically supportive, including when they do genocide? Are they going to make any policy concessions? Why? There is a reason that they are the ones telling you to follow this logic. It is not revolutionary irganozations2 telling you to do this. It is not great theorists. It is big standard capitalist party sheepdogging. Genocide edition.

Your trans homeless friends defo have it rough, the queer americans in my community do too. They would have it decidedly worse if America was dictatorially controlled by christian white nationalists.

The Christian White Nationalists are enabled and promoted by the "harm reduction" vote. These are pseudo-foils serving the same masters. The neo-fascists are responding to degrading conditions and a society with ubiquitous reactionary marginalization narratives to leverage to divert pain from loss of status or material well-being into racism and xenophobia. Dems are particularly effective at degrading conditions while preventing a left outlet, while promoting their right flank as an "opponent" that justifies voting blue. And while doing so, they move right. This course is one of mutual amplification, not harm reduction.

Jesus christ I'm so done with Liberals and I'm so done with people who see themselves as "enlightened" leftists. If I think that voting for a democratic government is a good idea, as it minimizes the likelihood of a total open fascist takeover of the US government and the placing of the US under martial law and enabling every political decision in the country to be made by a racist homophobic child rapist, then I'm supporting the neoliberal reality of America and killing homeless people or something.

Do you think that? How? Who told you that was good reasoning? I am sure it was among liberals. I do not mean that as an insult, I mean that it is literally a liberal framing of electoralism and political power. It is how they coopt your energy.

I think I am running out if character space on this comment. I would also like to center Palestinians rather than an extended discussion of US electoralism in this particular thread, if that is okay with you. If you would like to continue this discussion or have me go over the rest of what you replied, I would be happy to do so in a different thread or via DMs.

I thought acknowledging their opinion was participating tokenism that gives a green light to genocide.

You are very confused. My critique of the letter and the class character of its signatories is already a recognition of it.

You have offered nothing but a series of bad faith attacks and lies. And in service of trying to undermine someone telling you to oppose genocide and not support genociders. Please do some introspection.

Interesting how you've suddenly changed your tune.

I have been consistent.

Especially after that absolutely pathetic attempt to imply that I'm a racist for considering their opinion to be valid with your Latino comparison.

You are very confused and clearly did not understand that. I don't think it was confusjnglu written, though. Feel free to ask questions.

Yes, let’s let a fascist who wants to kill the Palestinians even faster into power.

Israel already has unconditional material support from the Biden-Harris administration on which the genocide is entirely dependent.

However, you can help prevent the normalization of genocide by saying it is your red line that you will not cross.

It will be super effective to protest against him when he is using military force to suppress us.

The Biden-Harris regime recently issued an EO, prompting a corresponding memo from the Pentagon, to authorize domestic military use, including lethal force against citizens in the US. Harris' running mate mobilized the national guard against George Floyd protesters. Harris is a prosecutor known for harsh and unfair treatment of the accused.

They are not oppositional forces in this matter.

It’s not like he hasn’t already used BOTAC to kill leftists during the George Floyd uprisings.

The people that killed leftists were cops and right wing stochastic terrorists. The cops are funded and defended and overseen and protected by Dems at all levels of government. And it is a rabbit hole, but the fates of Ferguson organizers are something to follow as well.

Surely all the guardrails will allow us to stop the genocide with him in power!

There are no guardrails. The question is whether you will take the first step in opposition of genocide by refusing to support it. There is much more work to be done.

"After Trump, Our Turn” comrades! Don’t vote!

Please center Palestine in your thoughts.

I work in solidarity with all Palestinians, but that does not mean I agree with or do work in agreement with the opinions of every Palestinian. That is the tokenizing logic I am referring to.

Palestinians are not a monolith. Please stop treating them as one. They are real, actual people.

And the Palestinians who signed this letter - which was not just signed by Palestinians - are relevant. Unfortunately their relevance in this instance is in a display of party loyalty and in favor of a candidate doing genocide, and it is not coincidental that they drew from NGOs and party insiders to curate the signatories.

I work in solidarity, not saviorism. Please do your best to act in good faith and not make things up. It is particularly disgusting when I am opposing a genocide for you to attempt dishonest zingers.

The point I was making was that this letter is not representative despite the various commenters here attempting to tokenize Palestinians.

See in the start you're right, yes, Trump and Harris have the same policy in regards to the Palestinian Genocide.

Actually I argued that the Biden-Harris administration is particularly competent at it, as they provide full, unconditional support but also rope Europe into it and convince their domestic base to not oppose them.

If Trump had been in office the people here currently doing genocide apologetics would be in the streets and building power against this. And Europe would be less subservient to US interests.

It is important to understand that impact is not just the overt garbage a politician says, it is what their policies are and how effective their propaganda is.

But you act like that means they're identical human beings who have identical intentions and who will make identical political actions.

No I don't.

Anyone that is not a genocider. Even not voting is better. If you would like to communicate that genocide is unacceptable, then the camdidates with anti-genkxise messages are de la Cruz and Stein.

If you don't support her, even if you think it's somehow good for Palestinians for her to lose, which it isn't

It is good for Palestinians and all people for the people of the US to think of genocide as unacceptable.

you are comfortably throwing minorities, LGBTQ, and progressives in every country around the world into the meat grinder to prove your point.

Do you think there are no queer people or minorities in Gaza? Are they immune to JDAM bombs?

Though really, you have no concept of solidarity. You seek to pit these groups against each other because the political class that you support puts a gun to their head. Instead of repeating their sociopathic threats, you should work in solidarity with all marginalized people.

An injury to one is an injury to all.

Sacrificing and doing ANYTHING to help one particular group, the consequences for everyone else be damned, isn't really all that different from the Zionists they purport to be against.

As you can see, I do not share the logic of pitting marginalized groups against one another. However you literally just tried to do that.

Please do some introspection.

Please do your best to not tokeize marginalized communities. I have mobilized more Palestinians for actions than there are Palestinians on this list. They do not speak for Palestinians. These are party insiders and the heads of NGOs. And, oer the letter itself, which you obviously did not read, it is signed not just by Palestinians, but by "Arabs, Progressive Democrats, and Community Leaders".

Democrats do this tokenizing bullshit all the time. Their favorite target is black people where they use the same subclass of people and claim thev speak for " the black community" itself a racist statement, as black people are not a monolith, just like Palestinians are not a monolith.

Imagine if you saw a headline and letter that read, "Latinos sign letter urging lower wages for Latinos" and it was just signed by a bunch of CEOs. Would you go around telling people that if they want higher wages for Latinos, they know better than Latinos? Would you pretend this is a representative group? Would you go around demanding lower pay?

I would like you and others to stop normalizing the genocide of Palestine. If you stop announcing your unconditional support for the people genociding Palestine to any degree then it has been effective.

In terms of being more generally politically effective, it is important to take a step away from the dictates of your political class faction. I think that having a simple red line of not supporting genocide should be enough for any moral person to do so.

Doxxing generally happens because someone wants to identify you, not because random people accidentally figure out who you are. A doxxer will attempt to extract details from your account's comment history and see if you have other accounts based on username or specific references.