TheOubliette @ TheOubliette @lemmy.ml

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2 yr. ago

You should be against genocide, not trying to bother those who are

Employers in the US often include "morality clauses" that mean they can fire you because they deem you to be harming the reputation of the company due to behavior outside of work.

More importantly than "the rules", though, US employers can fire you for basically any reason they want and then just lie about it. Nobody is going to force them to be truthful. Not even if they are union busting. The Biden-Harris NLRB, which the president dragged his feet staffing and staffed with wet blankets, has even upheld the Trump NLRB Electrolux decision - and the vast majority of people never get to the point of launching a lawsuit that would be relevant, as it costs tens of thousands of dollars.

If you want power in the workplace you need to organize a union competently and develop capacity real leverage (direct action, community support, naming and shaming).

I understand your stated idealist position, “I won’t vote for someone engaged in genocide”.

I don't think it's particularly idealist, though it is formulated to appeal to those with empathy. If they won't listen to "genocide is a red line", what do you think they will listen to? A long-winded explanation of political organizing, realignments, game theory, economics? Just saying "don't support genocide" elicits a flurry of bad-faith insults and absurd lies.

… but the reality is that Trump win, which is likely without every possible Dem vote, will cause the worst possible genocide.

There is no bigger gun to threaten people with. There is already genocide with maximalist support from the United States and a deftly subjugated Europe. It even gets support from alleged "good guys" that vote for Democrats. No resistance except from those with personal connections, a stronger connection to empathy, or the politically educated.

So by withholding your vote you’re not complicit in Harris-supported genocide, but you’re complicit in Trump supported genocide, which everyone understands to be worse.

That's funny, I don't think I told anyone to vote for Trump, either. Instead, I do work against genocide, organizing actions, politically educating those who don't just sit on their computers and justify supporting genocide to one another.

As I often say in these threads, withholding your vote is precisely what the republicans want you to do.

Of course it is, because the GOP and Democrats are competing for votes for an election. Do you believe this to be revelatory?

Seriously, will your ideals be much comfort when Trump supported Netanyahu is grinding Gaza to dost?

That is already happening under the Biden-Harris administration that forwarded this genocide for over the last year. Have you not seen the destruction, mass murder, burning of children alive? Do you not know where those weapons come from, how they are donated, what logistical support they receive, how the US attacks all opposition to the genocide?

When there aren’t any Palestinians left when Trump gets elected I hope you revisit your opinions and I hope you you can’t look yourself in the mirror.

The Biden-Harris administration is genociding Palestinians. I am not supporting any genociders. I work against them instead of attempting to support one or the other. I can easily look myself in the mirror, I am satisfied with my work.

I know it feels great acting morally superior, but your not sacrificing your own life. Your sacrificing others lives for that feeling.

Oh? Tell me more about what I do and what I risk, anonymous internet stranger. You have, presumably, doxxed me. Let's see the deets.

It doesn’t hurt you, so you can keep pretending like you’re better than others for “drawing a line” but you’re not the people who are being killed and Trump is saying to finish.

Should I tell this to my Palestinian compatriots that are nothing but contemptuous for those justifying supporting genociders?

They are free to make another thread and link it here. I am just not interested in distracting from the genocide on Palestinians here.

You can go start that thread if you'd like, feel free to ping me.

No, you can blame the non-voters. The ones who thought it was great idea to get pissy about one issue and stay home.

If there's just one issue and you don't even want to say what it is, aren't you implying it's a very important one? Maybe one you would feel bad downplaying if you named it?

But yes if she loses, I do hope you blame those who refused to vote over genocide. And internalize the lesson. And apply it to your future political endeavors.

Or “both sides” their way into an idiotic stance.

When both sides are for genocide you should probably work against them rather than figuring out which to reluctantly support.

And in 2026, you can also blame the non-voters. The ones who elected Kamala president, but are too stupid to understand that voting is an annual process, and Kamala isn’t a fucking queen that can enact anything she wants without the support of a democratically-elected Congress.

Damn those non-voters, don't they know they owe the genociders and their associates their votes!? Those are their votes, just sitting on empty ballots, being useless! How dare they expect literally anything at all! Don't they know that political power is all about pledging absolute allegiance to a party regardless of what they do!? What IDIOTS!

Vote twice a year, every year. Every. Fucking. Time. Why is that so hard to understand?

Don't worry, I do! I don't think you'd like my selections, though.

That is a good idea just so that you don't have to think about any potential privacy issues. Your email could be {firstword}{secondword}{4 numbers} and so long as the words and numbers are randomly generated, you can avoid accidentally including personal references or biases.

Your username does not need to be high-entropy, though. It will be semi-public. So it's not about strength against dictionary attack or similar, it is just about leaving the selection process up to a random process that isn't witnessed by a third party. You can write scripts that will generate these kinds of things using Python and the faker library.

???

Do you think the average US citizen can have the impact of Operation True Promise 2, let alone the entire state apparatus that carried it out?

Or do you mean that you are comparing Israel's threat to US citizens vs. Iran's?

Very confused.

Pay attention. You’re addressing a different person.

This is like 10 comments deep so yes I missed a new person jumping in to make the contribution of reiterating parent's sentiment and then launching unsupported insults.

Your engagement is not needed. This is not up for debate. This is a statement of who you are.

If you would like to discuss this further, make a new thread and ping me. I'm not sure why I need to say this 3 times.

When your input is desired again, your string will be pulled once more.

Is this like a little skit playing out in your head or something? Either way, again, the topic here is the genocide of Palestinians. I will be ignoring further off-topic replies.

You have already acknowledged that my supposed hypocrisy is fictitious, you just tried to then deflect to another criticism, i.e. denial. And I will engage with that criticism if you make another thread or go into DMs. But this thread is not about me or you, it is about the genocide of Palestinians.

The genocide itself cannot be made more maximalist. You mean there is another category.

I reject that argumentation as well, as genocide should be a red line. You don't get to come back from that. You cannot put salve on that wound so easily. Look at yourself in the mirror and see if you can withstand it. And if you can, ask yourself why anyone should look to you for solidarity and what you would be doing in Germany 1930, in the US in 1855. Would you be the abolitionist? Would you be the person fighting against fascists? Or would you be the "pragmatist" supporting regulation of slavery, the Whigs, and compromise with monarchists and liberals?

This is the opposite of my experience in Palestinian spaces in the US, including at community centers and community organizations. There have been some people attempting to organize support for Harris, but they have been shut down and signs against Harris put up. Of course among very politically engaged left groups of Palestinians the sentiment is 100% anti-Harris, but that is not representative. Both of these sentiments are things from across several states, including cities with large Palestinian populations. Also, to be clear, not all Palestinians are Muslim. These spaces are also not exclusively muslim. There are Palestinian Christians with this same trend.

Why do they do this if they aren’t politically connected, not in NGOs, etc.?

Palestinians are not a monolith, of course. They will have diverse opinions.

Ah yes I missed that.

The best situation for not losing the message would actually be a Harris loss and where various pundits and orgs push the message that it was due to support for genocide. The Democratic party and its loyalists will of course do its best to avoid that messaging and either deflect from the topic to blame something else (justifying whatever new stances the party wants to take) or by adopting a "Trump is worse so you deserve it" form of sour grapes.

Re: challenges in activism, it was much easier to organize under Trump than under Biden. But as I do not subscribe to lesser evilism arguments on electoralism, and am against genociders, I would also not vote nor recommend voting for Trump just because he made that part of political work easier.

Personally, I will be voting for a candidate that is explicitly against the genocide. In this way, the message of my vote will be fairly clear.

I get the concept of the Boogeyman opponent, but I’m this case nothing is myth, or fearmongering. We can see what the Biden admin is doing, and assume Harris won’t be very far from it. It’s not desirable but holy shit is there room for more chaos and death.

There really isn't in Palestine, in terms of the US. The US is competently organizing and supporting this genocide precisely because very competent Zionists are in charge, namely Biden, the team he has curated over decades, and Harris. They are actually pushing hard beyond what the Pentagon et al recommend, strategically, due to ideological commitment to the project. Harris is, of course, an empty suit, but one that is fully in line with this set of policies, and has taken on a major role in terms of selling the fake, appropriating "ceasefire" narrative and in running the DNC and its overall messaging, which has been brazenly pro-Israel during a genocide, committing to guaranteeing unconditional material supporting, and not even doing any form of pandering or aesthetic appeasement. Everyone knows that they could have brought on some wishy-washy Palestinian to do some both-sides pro-peace message at the DNC or later, but they are unwilling to do even that. That is how little they will give in on this issue. Those are the monsters created by this political self-disempowerment.

We have seen how trump handles the middle east, and color that with his modern statements. It’s evident trump’s path will be materially worse for Palestinians.

It is not evident. Trump is not as competent as Biden and his admin. He will have the same imperialist state that will of course back Israel, but he will also screw things up in various ways. I do not think Trump would have executed European subservience nearly as effectively as Biden-Harris. That is the primary outcome of their approach to Ukraine: to scuttle an independent Europe. They are now fully dollar-dependent and dependent on the US for energy while slowly deinstrializing themselves. Of course they will now fall in line more strongly on the US-backed genocide of Palestine. Trump actually pushed Europe in the opposite direction. This is not because he is smart and good, but he is inadvertently disruptive to carefully-laid plans, even while adhering to them 95% of the time.

Though to be clear, I do not subscribe to lesser-evilism logic. This is a self-defeating logic that is very shortsighted.

Given that trump or Harris will be the next president, the best choice for everyone is Harris.

The best choice is to not normalize genocide. I will accept a compromise: if you don't tell anyone to vote for Harris, nor defend such people, I don't mind if you cast your vote for her. Deal?

As a bonus, the opportunity to “refuse to normalize” will be in jeopardy with trump, as evidenced by his language to go after dissidents, his treatment of protesters, and the leveraging of stochastic terrorism to motivate his base towards race/ethnicity based attacks, the Muslim ban, the kashoggi murder, the soleimani assassination, his conservative judicial appointments, his under the table relationship with Saudi Arabia via kushner, and his on the record praise of strongmen like netanyahu.

The Biden-Harris administration is heavily pro-cop, and of course Harris called herself California's top cop. She was known for being particularly cruel as AG. Oppression against dissidents primarily happens via local police and sometimes state police and the military. This faction of the Dems fully coopted and then worked directly against the George Floyd protests to massively fund cops and it is local Democrats that facilitate and run the police departments engaging in naked and disproportionate violence. In addition, it is the Biden admin that just signed an EO to authorize the use of "lethal force" by the US military on US soil, something backed up by a subsequent Pentagon memo. It is important to understand that these are not really oppositional forces, they are co-amplifiers of one another, and the Democratic political class openly enable the slide into oppression and then pretend to be against it when it has a bad look. They are slick, but not reducing harm.

I could go on more about the examples you listed if you would like me to, I just don't want to take up too much space away from centering Palestine, particularly if it is not something you would want to discuss at length. Let me know if you would like to or if there is one particularly salient point that is most relevant. I could also continue that discussion in another thread or via DMs.

If you think it’s hard to denormalize what’s happening re Israel now, strap in for the trump ride.

Under Trump, the people here normalizing genocide would be anti-genocide to the hilt, or at least in how they internalize this red line to themselves. They could be mobilized to protest, they could learn the core lessons at hand, they could demand that Dems et al work against this, and they could get involved with direct actions. When they are normalizing genocide, they tend to work in the opposite direction, and things will get far worse.

Edit by abstaining on principle “you” may bring about the single worst person for progressive ideals, middle east stability, and Muslim security in the US with consequences lasting for decades.

I do quite a bit of work against the genocide on Palestine and political work. I am not simply "abstaining" from politics. But I do suggest that those who think of politics as electoralism consider what they are doing when they announce that it's okay to voter for genociders. What that really means and who you think you are vs. who you actually behave as, and what you will not just tolerate, but openly justify.

Please do your best to engage in good faith and avoid namecalling.

You are fucking scum.

Please do your best to engage in good faith and refrain from namecalling.

Working full time in other threads to sow discord, working (I believe literal) overtime to get people to vote for a candidate that will directly lead to the deaths of Palestinians as if you give a single shit about them…

Sorry but no I don't get paid to have opinions against genocide.

You’re working overtime to push the one thing that you know will drive a wedge between the Democratic party and progressives.

Democrats doing genocide is what creates the wedge. I am trying to get you to not accept genocide rather than go to the other side and accept it. It is bad to normalize genocide.

You say this is in order to force the Democrats to lose because you think this puts progressives in a better position going forward, but I’m not even sure I believe that.

No, it is because I think it is bad for everyone for you and others to normalize genocide. I am simply responding to others' questions and points when they say things like what it means to get blamed for defeat and so on. I do not think anyone here is being organized or strategic. But they are normalizing genocide.

You’re trash. Fuck off please.

Please do your best to avoid namecalling.

Not that it matters. Trump wins, actual progressives will have more important things to worry about such as basic survival

I have already organized under several presidents, including Obama, Trump, and Biden. This "Trump sandwich" is revelatory. Of those three, it has been most difficult under Obama and Biden, as well as due to the local policies of Democrats.

Because I apparently need to explain it, this does not mean I am saying Trump is simply "better" or you should vote for him. Remember, I don't subscribe to "lesser evil" votes for genociders.

Comments with warning likes mine should be stickied at the top of all posts premised on people providing personal information in order to post.

Do you... do you think I was literally placing a bet?

Refusing to normalize genocide is an important first step for working against it. The reason Dems can do genocide and not fear a loss is that so many people fall in line over threats that "the other guy" will win.