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exchristian @lemmy.one
Flagstaff @programming.dev

How does the great void of death not disturb you?

Or does it?

I know we were once nothing, but it is still terrifying and depressing to me to think about returning to this. In fact, as of late, I've been unable to not think about it: the loss of all experience and all memories of everything, forever. All the good times we had, and will have, with anyone or anything ever will totally annihilate into nothingness. All our efforts will amount to nothing because the thoughtless void is ultimately what awaits everything in the end.

The only argument against this would have to be supernatural, like another cause of the Big Bang or somehow proof of reincarnation, but if my consciousness won't exist for me to experience it, then what does it matter either way?

There is no comfort in Hell, either. The anvil of death weighing down, infinitely, on all values and passions is becoming unbearable for me, so I could really use any potentially helpful thoughts about this matter.

84 comments

  • Do you fear the void before birth you emerged from?

    Same shit.

  • There's no use in fearing the inevitable. It will come, whether you like it or not, and no amount of fighting can stop it. Fearing it only makes you focus on some indeterminate time in the future and lose sight of the now.

  • Practice radical acceptance

    There is no benefit in attaching ourselves to the suffering and rumination of that which cannot be changed. We practice radical acceptance in this instance because it, more than any other instance, is unchangeable. Allow yourself to feel the frustration, sadness, grief, anger, etc that you feel when you think about death but allow yourself to let the thoughts pass by rather than attaching to them. If you struggle with it (which of course you will, you’re only human) reflect any analyze your resistance to being able to accept.

    It takes practice. There’s a lot more to it, I’m paraphrasing a lot. It’s worth reading about if you’re really struggling

  • We all have a fundamental drive to avoid dying. Our awareness of this inevitability is in direct conflict with this. The solution is often a change in how you think about things and yourself.

    My personal view is that I have something analogous to a soul. It is the 'me' of me. It is also fundamentally tied to the structure of my brain (and body). When that structure changes, I change, when it goes, my 'soul' is destroyed with it. Critically however is that it is not alone. I can imagine what friends and relatives would say or do. In some ways, I have a weaker copy of their 'soul' within mine.

    I also imprint part of my soul onto others in other ways. I create ripples in the world. Changes that wouldn't happen, were I not alive. Those ripples propagate through others, changing them. Some of those ripples are weak, only affecting 1 person. Others are stronger, affecting several people. A few are strong, able to spread, grow, and change the world (if only slightly). While those ripples, or their echoes exist, part of me does too.

    My goal in life is 2-fold. Maximise my happiness and maximise the positive ripples I can create.

    A quote by Terry Pratchett put it more poetically.

    "No one is finally dead until the ripples they cause in the world die away, until the clock wound up winds down, until the wine she made has finished its ferment, until the crop they planted is harvested. The span of someone’s life is only the core of their actual existence."

    • Right, I've certainly thought about this:

      No one is finally dead until the ripples they cause in the world die away

      Here's my problem: that "finally" will still come, and even centuries or eons of influence are nothing compared to the eternity of experience-less-ness. Death will eventually come for everyone and everything, even stars. Perhaps I was influenced a bit by this graphic about the life cycle of stars, especially the anthropomorphic white dwarf: https://old.reddit.com/comments/1j68uai

      This is the core of the issue with Dio de Los Muertos, the idea that your existence will last as long as others' memories of you will; that will still eventually come to an end, so why try so hard from a moral position to alleviate suffering if all suffering itself will also cease anyway?

      You can certainly still do it, and I will also still try to reduce others' suffering in whatever ways I feel I can sustainably repeat for my own comfort level, but we then can't claim some kind of moral superiority in doing so versus selfish people if it all comes to an end anyway; you simply do it because it makes you feel good, perhaps fed by millennia of evolutionistic altruism. There is no basis for any moral high ground when everything all comes to an end in this tiny blip of life existence anyway.

      The ace in the hold to my view here is life extension and age-reversing technology. If we can actually conquer age-caused death, then that would totally change the ballgame. I guess we'll see if that's possible, with all the billionaires and scientists currently pouring beacoup bucks into this endeavor. But... I don't know...

      Anyway, thanks for sharing. It's an extremely difficult topic no matter how you slice it.

  • All the good times we had, and will have, with anyone or anything ever will totally annihilate into nothingness.

    No. They will still have happened. You will still have experienced them. You can only really ever experience whatever is happening to you now. If there is only nothingness after death, then you will not experience it.

    Make the most of your life in the way it make sense to you. That could be having more shared laughs with loved ones or dedicate it to saving the critically endangered purple-spotted pygmy shrew.

    In short: You will experience your life, you will not experience "the great void of death".

  • Embrace the void, like the womb it is. Safe, tranquil, forever at peace. Closest thing to a real heaven

    • The loss of my memories is not something I look forward to (again, presuming that's what would actually happen).

  • There is a difference between knowing and feeling. Rest in the feeling of your life before birth. What do you feel?

  • From an uncertain genesis to a certain end. You do not remember being born, but you know someday that you will die. This is awareness. And there is some comfort in this.

    In the past you have remembrance or memory. The things that you were or the things that happened to you. In the future you anticipate what could come, or what your hopes are. You make plans. And that's fine. It's part of the human condition. But the now is the only thing that is actually happening.

    Seize this moment. This moment is where you are. This moment is where you live. Being kind to yourself, being kind to others, being a person that others would wish to be, if they were examining your present person.

    To build the world, or at least your small part of it, in the way that you see fit is all that our tiny hands can do. And there is a certain satisfaction in that. To live moment to moment. And to build your station. And to build others stations around you. To empower yourself and others. These are the things that build satisfaction. Gratification. These things are real. And these things do not require anything of the past or future.

    Eventually you can stretch this now into the whole of your life. And it will provide wholeness that is not dictated by any sort of belief. For belief is not necessary. Let me repeat. You do not need to believe in anything to have wholeness and fulfillment in your life. But it certainly helps to be kind to others for its own sake. For that is the rule that others will measure you on as well.

    I hope that helps.

    PS. If you dig on this kind of thing, look into stoicism.

    • These are the things that build satisfaction. Gratification. These things are real.

      But gratification is ultimately just a series of chemical reactions. So you're saying to merely dig into the chemicals? To be clear, I don't fault you if your answer is "Yes" and even think that that's the inevitable answer; it just seems less... valuable to me, if I couldn't find a more accurate adjective.

      I don't think I'm looking for any particular belief but I guess I just wish that being kind to others (which, to clarify, I will almost certainly not just stop doing) mattered on a level more than just us wanting to do it for the chemicals, now that I've totally sunk into science's observations of the material world being all that there is. Since I no longer believe that there is a higher power, I've concluded that we just do things for the feels, good or bad. And that seems... lame(? Or something) to me, but it appears like there is no other way to go about it. Morals don't independently exist (there is no such objective thing as "justice," etc.) and are just guided by hormones and chemicals evoking sympathy based on our experiences and subjective thoughts of what justice, happiness, peace, etc. even mean.

      And then our memories of it all will end anyway. What a waste and tragedy.

      Sorry for being such a sour worm. I do appreciate your response but all this thought is leading me to "seize the moment" and therefore procrastinate on doing my taxes versus playing games, etc.

      • But gratification is ultimately just a series of chemical reactions. So you're saying to merely dig into the chemicals?

        No. I mean I guess you could see it that way, and you could even do that, whether those chemicals be internal or external. But I think that's oversimplifying. The satisfaction and gratification come from knowing. Knowing that what you are doing right now is something that you want to be doing. Not want in the I want a sandwich sort of way. Want in the I want what I'm doing now to be the thing that gives my experience a more complete and deep meaning sort of way.

        I would quote here but it seems pedantic.

        You speak of chemicals and hormones evoking emotions (sympathy was your word) based on some arbitrary morals that don't exist. And I don't think you're wrong. But I think in this case you're not oversimplifying you're overcomplicating. Erm. Let me see if I can elucidate. I'm thinking this through right now so let me see if I can get it right..

        Think of yourself as an ant. On a very big round hill with a whole bunch of other ants. You are Flagstaff the ant. You are part of a colony. I am monocle the ant. And we are discussing this in some sort of bizarre moderated telepathy that we call words. I think some things, you think some things, and these things that we think of are all controlled by our hormones and chemicals. Pathways of how we think are familiar routes for those neurons that fire. That's how we have been conditioned to be who we are.

        We make decisions based on that. Our identities are based on that. What make us up are our experiences. And what we decide to do with those experiences. Just like every previous experience from every entity that we have ever come in contact with. So it's like we couldn't have ended up anywhere else because that's what we have decided to do. This conversation is what we've decided to do. This is the question of free will.

        So if you zoom way out, I mean like way way out, all you see is the colony. Like Flagstaff and monocle don't really exist, except that we do. You don't give names to ants. It's just ants. You look at an ant colony, and you think there's ants. Yet all the ants are communicating in a somewhat similar fashion as to what we are.

        Is it pointless? What the ants do? What we do? Maybe. But there is some amount of meaning in the question that you asked. Or at least we hope there is. Otherwise I wouldn't be here answering it, and you wouldn't be replying to my answer, and I wouldn't be replying to your counterpoint.

        Being good to yourself and others. Whatever that is and whatever chemicals that it produces, cause and effect and all that. We don't need a higher power for that. We are the higher power, we are the colony.

        Well that sounds really hokey and like a bunch of metaphysical horse crap. But I've re-edited this thing like 10 times and I have work in the morning at my factory job. So I have to let it go for now. Hope that helps.

  • I think of it this way. Do you remember your great grandparents? How about your great great grandparents? How about your great great great grandparents? At some point, you'll go, "Gee, I've never thought of them before."

    But do you think they mattered? You may not know what they did, what they hoped for, and the struggles they faced, but had they not existed, neither would you have. They mattered, even if you remember very little about them, and on top of that, you can probably learn about many of them with some effort in genealogy.

    You may not have some cosmic importance with the power to change the world, but neither did most Christians, even when you were a believer. But that doesn't mean they didn't matter, and it doesn't mean you don't matter.

    Christianity teaches you the lie that to matter, you must have permanence, but consider this:

    Your life is like a plate of cookies, warm and sweet and delicious, and it is best when shared with people you love. One day, that plate of cookies will be empty, but the cookies are no less delicious and the sharing no less meaningful just because there is a finite number of cookies.

    One day, my plate of cookies will be empty, but if I am remembered fondly, then it will have been a life lived well. I don't need infinite cosmic importance to matter, and neither do you.

    • if I am remembered fondly

      The problem is that this doesn't matter relative to the looming deadline of the eventual, permanent nonexistence of everything—not just your own short life—I mean the entire universe and your memory keepers; what does it matter if one is remembered fondly for a brief few decades or even centuries or millennia versus timelessness? I don't think many people understand just how vast infinity really is. You can tell yourself that your life choices matter, but that's not the truth, given how everything goes to basically science's version of Sheol/the OT "grave." For them, there was no out; that was it.

      It may sound cold, but what would it matter to research our ancestors' struggles, hopes, dreams, and experiences? Struggle itself will cease to matter—collectively for everyone/everything—as well as everything else we've mentioned. It would sure be nice, even great, if it mattered, but I can't see how any particular value can be objectively derived from anything given the vast entropy that awaits all things, including the permanent death of knowledge itself. Our own discussion here will crumble. It's maddening that nothing will be untouched; nay, even nothing less than being completely obliterated. Therefore, any "well-living" of one's life would simply be because one wants to do it, with no further basis other than just feeling good (from evolutionistic altruism or whatever provides the dopamine or serotonin, sure)—certainly not "morals," which technically don't exist and were just collectively agreed upon to sustain hive minds' survival. And while I'm certainly not gonna suddenly go immoral...

      That severely bothers me.

      I don’t need infinite cosmic importance to matter, and neither do you.

      It's not about importance to other people or beings; it's just about our own continued experience of experience itself. If you won't be there, why does what anything you struggle for matter? If you cause someone more pain... they'll eventually just die anyway! If you fight to reduce waste and help other people reduce pain in their lives or others'... they'll all just die anyway! "But for the span of their lives, they'll have felt better/worse"—so what? There is no basis for any valuing of one way or another relative to the absolutely immense size of eternity that awaits after such a speck of < a century of some more/less suffering/enjoyment. Am I missing something here? Seriously, I hope I am, but this is all I can conclude.

      I feel like the only consolation is that those in massive suffering (whether physical or otherwise) will eventually find "peace" through death, even though nothingness is technically not actual peace, either; the phrase, "lay to rest," seems to ultimately be still more anthropomorphizing and feel-good comfort, to me anyway, for basically anyone who isn't in the height of constant, unavoidable pain.

      With that said (and I mentioned this in another comment elsewhere here), the ace in the hole that completely throws my argument for a loop is the potential development of anti-aging technology should we be able to get anything like it, thanks to all the billionaires striving for it these years. It really resonated with me when Seth McFarlane said in The Orville about whether one would choose to live forever or not: "I want to see what happens next." If we can actually achieve that, then there'd be a better argument... in my understanding, anyway.

      Christianity teaches you the lie that to matter, you must have permanence

      Not really; I just want permanence regardless, lol.

  • Nothing can stop the good times we've had from having happened.

    • Sure, the events are locked into the frozen river of the past, but they only matter if we can remember them. At least, that's how I can't seem to not see it as...

  • The counterargument that works for me is - why must it be terrifying to return to nothing? It’s something immutable. We weren’t owed anything by the universe - why bemoan what we don’t have, when we could enjoy that which we do?

    Take a walk outside. Read a book. Snuggle something furry. It’s perfectly natural to fear death, but if it stops you from enjoying your life, isn’t that a little self defeating?

    • True, I suppose it could be seen as being greedy, then, given how we didn't ask to be born, either. But we weren't exactly able to, anyway...

  • I've had an overall decent life. I still have a lot of time to live with my friends and family. But I take solace in the fact that I will just cease to exist when I die. Or obviously, that's my opinion anyways.

    I don't want to argue my beliefs, but that's how I feel about it.

    It seems like a just end. Literally nothing. A final sleep.

  • Without trying to sound too metaphysical. I look at it this way. The atoms that make up my body were forged in the hearts of stars. These atoms have existed in some form across the universe for billions of years.

    I don't remember what patterns my atoms were before they became this one, and I don't know what pattern these atoms will take once I am done with them, but these atoms will remain.

    This consciousness that has arisen from this pattern of atoms may give way to a different consciousness in a different pattern of atoms in some untold amount of time. While this consciousness may not know of that one, and that one may not remember this, it eases my mind to know that the stardust that originated these atoms will still exist.

    It eases my mind to know that in the infinite void of nothingness, this pattern of atoms and this consciousness have impacted those around me. The short period of time that this consciousness is around gives me the opportunity to experience the wonderful breadth of the human condition, because this will be the only time these atoms are in this exact pattern. Every moment of my existence I am unique.

    I am of the universe, I have experienced the universe, and others have experienced the universe through me.

    • this will be the only time these atoms are in this exact pattern. Every moment of my existence I am unique.

      True, very interesting thought!

  • Yeah, everything you listed as a negative to fear I take a different positive spin on.

    I will lose all sense of regret, loss, pain, fear, and guilt instantly.
    The good times are still there in the memories of the living, where they belong.
    The universe being a huge uncaring void means it doesn't matter that the world is... infected with humans. That, too, one day, will pass.
    Nothing matters. Be free.

  • We were never nothing. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed.

  • For me, it's easy to not fear it when I'm healthy, but as soon as I have health problems, I get this strong fear of mortality. It's a visceral thing though. In my mind, I know it's fine, it's inevitable, and there has never been a better time in history for medical treatment. But the fear I feel is separate from that rational knowledge. That is what's hard for me to harmonize. There is an anxiety underneath it all. And the funny thing is I never used to get that either, but after my brother committed suicide, I have had this visceral, mortal fear.

    Daily meditation has helped me identify the feelings, but has not helped much in overcoming them. It has helped me find peace among them, which is a decent middle ground.

    The mortal fear also helps me clearly prioritize things in my life, so it does have its benefits.

    • That is so sad about your brother. That sucks that you had to go through that. I hope your family is doing better as well.

  • As someone who is very depressed, the idea of heaven and hell kind of disturb me. I'm so very, very tired, and I just want it all to stop. I want to stop experiencing, I want to stop doing, it doesn't matter how nice. Suicide is so appealing because I could just turn it all off.

    I talk about this because I think an eternity in conventional heaven would eventually depress you. I think that faced with eternity, true infinity, eventually you'll have wringed out every last drop of happiness you can from existence and you'd long for rest just as much as I do.

    Sorry, I want to be comforting to you and to me this is but I doubt it is to you. I'll leave you with this thought--because I don't believe there's an afterlife punishment or reward, it makes being the best person I can be all the more important. My actions are driven from me wanting the world to be a better place, not from me trying to earn a reward.

    • Oh, I'd already long shut out the concepts of H&H from my expectations, and I was previously Protestant and did not derive faith from works so I wasn't/haven't been doing good deeds for the sake of a personal reward anyway. That's why this:

      because I don't believe there's an afterlife punishment or reward, it makes being the best person I can be all the more important.

      ... seems contradictory because the ultimate death of everything seems to reduce the importance of anything we do, which is what bugs me.

      Anyway, my perspective doesn't really apply to people whose life situations have involved more suffering than enjoyment, like it sounds yours unfortunately has; I rather generally like my current life situation. I hope things improve for you, given how this seems like it's all we've got.

      • Maybe a simpler way to put it

        You find a lost crying child in a mall. Do you help them find their parents, do you ignore them, or do you kick them over? In 100 years, it won't matter. No one's going to punish you for ignoring them. But, the choice you make matters a lot to the kid.

      • It's interesting, because I see it as like

        The world shapes us heavily, and we shape the world slightly. If I do my best to be kind and helpful, at least a very small amount of the time, those actions will lead to someone else doing the same. My individual actions might have a small impact relative to the world, but I'll leave it a little bit better than I found it. Or at least, a little bit better than if I hadn't existed at all.

        To my mind, this is different than a legacy. No one, not even me, will ever truly know the effect I've had on the world. My actions aren't going down in history books. No one will remember me in 50 years. However, it doesn't matter. My positive effect on the world, however small, remains.

  • I used to be scared of death, too, then I realised how terrible life was. Now I look forward to it so there will be no more suffering. Oblivion is better than pain. I'm still scared of the pain of dying, just not of what may lie beyond.

  • I suppose it depends on how attached you are to this life. The loss of fear, worry, pain, drama, hunger, thirst, illness, etc. It might help to look at scientific talks about time. In particular if it does have a direction. Basically you perceive this thing happening in the future but that is just an artifact of existence as your future is no more separate than the past.

  • adding another comment as I like this woody allen quote. Its not that im afraid of dying its just that I don't want to be there when it happens.

    • Ha, I think I read that many years ago. I actually might be fine with being there and even dealing with the pain to the end, however it may manifest, but it's the lack of anything after that's bothersome. I hope I'm wrong.

      • Yeah the nothingness has given me the existentials in the past but I tell you if someone tell me I could die today painlessly and cease to exist or 40 years from now but it will be from alzheimers which progresses over the last 30 years or 20 years from now an incredibly painful one. Ill take today. Maybe I will mention something I have sometimes mentioned around life. If someone dies in the prime of life or earlier and its a tragedy. Even later as they reach middle age it can be like wow they did not get a chance. You get to 50 though. And yeah its early to die that decade but you know. It happens and like that person had a life. They had their shot. To say they were robbed of having a life or such is just false at that point. Don't get me wrong they could still have a magnus opus or something but thats unlikely. So if your younger than that I can see the anst but I bet when you get there you will start realizing that sure. It would be great to keep living. I mean consciousness is great. But you know it would be way more great if like the world were a better place and you could keep that nice youthful health. It gets to seem more like a break from this crazy locomative breath train. No idea if it helps but its just a perspective.

  • Another answer to persistent impact is communality. Your actions echo in the people and places you've shared with others.

    The laws, traditions, buildings, sentiments, norms, societal wounds, environment, relationships, etc. all come from people doing things during their lifetime. You can be one of those people, and choose what your contribution and legacy could be.

    What will you leave for the next generation?

    You can't affect if your consciousness will live on or not, but you can affect your conscience. Maybe start there?

    • I already am; for half a year now, I've been running regular, even near-weekly, gatherings for the public to try to fight off loneliness in my community and help people make friends. But they will all eventually die; everything you said—these relationships, the environment, law, society, the Earth, the solar system—will eventually fall apart with enough time; I'm talking about going all the way past humanity colonizing Mars, to the point of our sun—no, all such main sequence stars in the universe—eventually becoming a red giant, then a white dwarf, and finally disintegrating into black holes. Eventually it will all collapse in one way or another.

      I feel like all morals are shortsighted for not looking far ahead enough (I mean faaaaaaaaar ahead, eons upon eons) at what little basis there is for themselves; we're talking about eternity here by comparison. I guess religion's approach is to just cap it off with heaven and/or limbo and/or hell, but any of these is still tremendously disturbing IMO.

      To clarify, I'm not gonna suddenly stop running my social gatherings nor trying to help other people with their problems, but this existential crisis puts quite the dampener on everything.

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