dear republicans, what's the point of alienating every single ally of the US?
zenitsu @ zenitsu @sh.itjust.works Posts 1Comments 173Joined 2 yr. ago
zenitsu @ zenitsu @sh.itjust.works
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The idea of Kamala Harris being more genuine/honest than me is too absurd to even take offense at
If you're suggesting that she should've thrown Biden under the bus in her response, then it's not absurd at all.
Because the vice president doesn’t have much power? Obviously.
Ah yes, all of a sudden voters are aware of the facts "oBviOusLy" lmao. Let's just pretend that whatever real or imagined failures of the Biden admin weren't successfully thrown onto her during the campaign. zzzzzzzzzz
“You are struggling, and the reason you’re struggling is minorities” vs “You’re not struggling, it’s all in your head, the economy’s doing fine actually,”
It's more like “You are struggling, and the reason you’re struggling is minorities” vs the basic facts of how the country is actually performing and what actually caused inflation all over the world. Too many Americans are just too dumb and misinformed, that much is clear.
Do you genuinely want to eliminate the country through military force?
Not sure why you pulled this absurd strawman out of your ass. Who said anything about "eliminating"? They can just fuck off back to their own country, it's not that hard.
I’ll forgive your lie because it seems like you’re genuinely incapable of distinguishing between those two propositions
You said "nobody could've predicted that Trump would put project 2025 heads into government". So shove your forgiveness up your ass you tankie clown. Don't patronize me.
Because of my assessment of the situation.
Oh is this your expert military opinion? Pfft.
because they’re more materially invested in the conflict than the US.
Did you forget that I said "supporting Ukraine properly" or are you just selectively blind?
How do you know Ukraine winning wouldn’t result in death camps all over Ukraine for years?
Which side has leaders with warrants for genocide again? If that question isn't proof that you're a bad faith clown just saying nonsense for the sake of debate, idk what is.
It did not have the impact you want it to have because people vote according to their material interests
I don't know why I bother. They didn't vote according to the REALITY of their material interests you dumbass, they voted according to their MISINFORMED INTERPRETATION of their material interests. WHY YOU ASK? Because the administration did objectively well MATERIALLY and NOBODY CARED. Trump is also OBJECTIVELY BAD for their MATERIAL INTERESTS, this is proven by both the FACTS of his first term and the DOGSHIT or NON-EXISTENT PLANS for his second term.
blame the rich, the billionaires who are hoarding wealth and price gouging
This is just a dogshit tankie take. Trump filled his cabinet with billionaires and was supported by the richest man on earth. Nobody cares about this "blame the rich" nonsense, evidently. It's clear that you just see everything through this trash tankie lens which is why it feels like I'm talking to a schizo. Hilarious that you genuinely think that you would've been better at coming up with a successful strategy for Kamala than people who do that shit for a living.
directly asked what she would do differently than Biden on the economy and had *absolutely no answer," which was an extreme political fumble. Saying virtually anything would be better than that. She is a terrible politician with poor political instincts
Ah yes, I know that in your world of non-existent morality this would've had an easy counter. But shitting on your current boss by making up nonsense about how he actually did things poorly (when he didn't) doesn't come easily for people who are more genuine/honest than you. Also, isn't the obvious answer to anything Kamala could say "why didn't you do/push for that policy as the vice president?"
US politics should be recognized for what it is.
I do recognize it as the piece of shit it currently is yes.
Because you can. You just have to view things through a materialist lens rather than an idealist one.
Engaging in and furthering the decay just to win isn't the way to go. Clear out the trash so that democracy can actually function. Ridding ourselves of this dogshit disinformation environment and returning to normal politics isn't "idealist", we've been there not too long ago.
“People persue their own interests” is not a “hyper-cynical teenage view” lmao.
pretending that everyone does this to the same extent is what makes it a hyper-cynical teenage view.
my class interests
spare me the tankie cringe
If you want to ask me to set aside my own interests in favor of your opinions about morality
If I'm just comparing how shit the Russian gov is vs the US gov, your interests aren't relevant in the first place.
Then make the case, because you haven’t. All you’ve done is talk about how they’re the bad guys and pulled out an unrelated example from 80 years ago that’s resulted in disaster every time it’s been used as an example.
Do you live under a fucking rock? Do you need it explained to you why failing to stand up to this invasion might encourage others (like China->Taiwan)? Why stability/security in the West/World is vital for prosperity and won't be possible unless Russia is defeated, given that they've spent most of the time under this regime by being raping & pillaging shits?
Of course I do. I mean, to the extent that it’s possible to predict any events. It’s the deaths from surrendering versus the deaths from surrendering plus the deaths from however long the war keeps going.
Hubris? Yet you think it was super difficult to predict Trumps relationship to Project 2025 lmao. Tell me, how do you know that supporting Ukraine properly doesn't result in Russia's defeat in, say another year or that surrendering them doesn't result in death camps all over Ukraine for years? Fuck off with your "off course I do". Now go back to reading whatever tankie trash that's been rotting your brain as you're clearly only interested in bad faith debate and juggling semantics.
but we’re discussing voter behavior, which doesn’t necessarily see that connection or care as much as they perhaps should
Yes, because they're heavily brainwashed by foreign and right-wing propaganda. Just waiting for you to finally concede this basic fact.
Did those things have a direct, material impact on broad segments of the population?
The fact that the candidate outed himself as a senile retard should have the material impact of shifting votes to the opposition.
Regardless of whether she should have had to, she did have to.
And how exactly should Kamala distance herself realistically from the administration she herself was in? Do you think you can come up with some gem of an insight that all the top advisers failed to see? Cool
you’re just complaining about how reality works
YES I AM. I'm not sure why you insist on pretending the current state of US politics is a normal reality that people are meant to just conform to, where you can still calculate what the right move is or isn't according to any kind of rules that make sense. It's completely fucked. Good faith politicians can't function normally in this dogshit environment where people think that random social media posts are a genuine substitute for real news, or spend their days listening to pundits who are literally paid by Russia.
THE WHOLE POINT IS HOW DISINFORMATION IS KILLING DEMOCRACY YES.
“good guys” and “bad guys” like it’s a Saturday morning cartoon. In reality, they’re all ruthlessly self-interested and neither Russia nor the US has any interest in improving the lives of ordinary people
Not sure why you think this hyper-cynical teenage view is any less of an inane and immature lens than "saturday morning cartoons"
The correct way to view such conflicts is through the lens of realpolitik.
That's just your opinion.
ones exploiting me, and are therefore my most direct and primary enemy.
I never positioned the conversation as being about who is exploiting YOU more though. You keep inserting your own personal interests as if it should be the compass when comparing the US and Russia, idk why.
then you need to be able to make the case that supporting the American capitalists/government against the Russians is somehow in line with my material class interests
No time for tankie bs, sorry. If you can't already see how the US gov is incomparably better to what Russia has to over the world then you're too far gone.
you won’t be able to make it to a broad audience
I'm not a celebrity or a pundit, I'm not here to sell my case to a "broad audience", I just talk to individuals.
And if Ukraine is going to be abandoned anyway
"We should abandon it because it's going to be abandoned anyway" is circular logic nonsense. The point should be people realizing that it's best, even just for their own self-interest, for Ukraine to win.
because it just means more people will die.
You have no idea if supporting or surrendering would result in more or less deaths. Don't pretend to know.
Sure, but I’m not talking about anything related to morality. I’m talking about the way the world is and does work, not how the world ought to work. I’d be happy to discuss morality some other time, but when we’re trying to understand physical reality, we need to be able to set it aside. But you refuse to do that. You aren’t capable of looking at things objectively because you’re always immediately trying to inject you opinions about how it ought to be.
No, you're just trying to cleanly separate morality from real events as if this is a fucking video game. The moral fiber of politicians for example, is and should be a concern because it does have an impact in pHysiCaL rEaLiTy.
it was less than Trump did it right and more that Kamala did it horribly wrong.
Oh really? was it Kamala that ranted about Haitians eating pets? danced for 40 min onstage to ave maria and ymca like a senile kook? She shouldn't have to distance herself from the Biden administration because the administration objectively did a good job. It's really hard for you to admit that people are just uninformed or misinformed by propaganda.
Ok then, great, should be easy then. Just be a bad actor and get the morons to fall for your propaganda instead of theirs.
This is also another opportunity for you to realise that morality actually exists and is something to account for.
If the cold war is “ancient ass” what does that make Hitler? “Prehistoric ass?” Completely arbitrary, of the example serves your position is fine, if it serves my position it doesn’t count.
I'll try to explain again since once doesn't seem to be enough. It's not about how old the examples are. You were using OLD examples to justify an opinion on the US NOWADAYS, while I was merely pointing out the similarities between Putin and Hitlers tactics. The difference between these two should be obvious.
constantly losing the plot and getting distracted by moralizing
keep shooting out this tired slogan. I've just been stating facts. I don't give a fuck if your goal is to carry water for them or not, you made comparisons regardless so don't suddenly pretend as if comparing them came out of nowhere or isn't relevant to the topic.
Again, as always, you’re getting distracted by moralizing.
You keep repeating this meaningless slogan as if we live in a world where morality doesn't exist or matter.
Inflation, therefore, is more important to the average person than January 6th, and if you go on and on about Jan 6 while failing to address their economic concerns, you will lose. Again, like what happened.
Agreed, not full picture though. Let me know in what way did Trump do a better job of addressing economic concerns given his already shit economic policies during his first term and his inability to communicate any meaningful plans.
Understanding and adapting to what voters actually care about
But they don't genuinely care, because if they did they'd try to be minimally informed. It's all just based on emoting and slogans, It's all morons falling for braindead propaganda by bad actors.
Also very funny to me that you’ll exclude history from like 40 years ago but cite history from 80 years ago (WWII) as still relevant.
It's funny to you because you're too stupid to know the difference between comparing similar tactics used between Hitler and Putin VERSUS using ancient-ass cold war events to justify a contemporary opinion.
I don’t, thanks. Why would I?
Well it seemed like you were very much willing to carrying water for the actions of the Russian state by saying that the US does the same things, if not even worse. Suddenly you have no interest in comparing them? Try having the ability to follow a conversation before engaging in one.
Yeah? What percentage of the population?
How is that relevant? How many lives need to be destroyed and how much does your democracy need to be damaged to bullshit and lies alone for it to be an issue?
What we’re talking about is not morality, it’s the factual question of why Trump won. For that purpose, his character is only relevant insofar as it affects public opinion of him.
I've only used his character and actions to highlight how manipulated and misinformed people have to be to still vote for him. That should be clear.
Which parts? I need specifics since you just tried to claim that January 6th was an issue that had a direct, material impact on the average American (lmao!) so I don’t trust you to
Go watch the interviews/campaign speeches and almost every article regarding the project before the election. There was no lack of warning about what was to come, anyone who was unaware either didn't care or was just another one of the misguided sheep. If you don't already think the damage done to American democracy on Jan 6th doesn't, by definition, have an impact on the average American then you have some other grave issue in your "philosophy". If you just don't care about democracy because you're some kind of brainlet tankie then RIP, waste of time.
I already cited numerous examples of US propaganda and dinsinformation which included ones that fit your arbitrary criteria of neither too recent nor too old.
I don't remember you citing anything that falls into the criteria, which isn't arbitrary btw, it should be obvious that it's fucking stupid to rely on examples from decades ago if you're comparing it to another nations current actions.
here’s also shit like this recruitment ad that’s pretty open and explicit about manipulating public opinion.
Are you actually comparing a recruitment ad to Russia's media manipulation, crackdowns, and foreign interference? kill me
It’s also just a completely absurd idea, we don’t do propaganda because, what, we’re “the good guys?” Not how the world works lol, incredibly naive take.
Good thing I didn't say any of that shit. If you could stop building strawmen out of my arguments because you can't actually tackle any of them, that would be great.
Please stop telling me things I just told you. Literally in the part you quoted and were responding to, I said, “because they’re not in a position to do so.”
Then stop saying stupid shit if you're not making any substantive points? What's the point of saying they don't do shit to you because they're not in a position to do so? wow, thanks for the enlightening insight.
But I’m not part of that population.
Bro, this isn't about YOU. If you want to objectively compare how each government treats their own population, then the fact that the foreign government doesn't affect YOU isn't fucking relevant you moron (even though they do affect you via election interference/propaganda, but sure).
it’s another example of focusing on character in a way that doesn’t have any direct, material impact on people’s lives.
If you think that shitting all over democracy by attempting a coup and lying about the integrity of your elections "doesn’t have any direct, material impact on people’s lives" then you have brain worms. People even died to this shit. Families and friendships have been ruined.
Project 2025, Trump disavowed
Oh wow, I'm so glad that the serial liar "disavowed" it and then proceeded to install the minds behind project 2025 into government and speed-run the implementation of its policies.
Telling people to read a 900 page document that Trump claims not to support is not enough, no.
Don't be disingenuous and obtuse. Nobody asked anyone to read 900 pages, summaries of the project were detailed all over the media and Dems/Kamala highlighted various points of the project. Again, if people were too retarded to take it seriously that's on them. They can eat the shit they ordered now.
Was laying out project 2025 and January 6th not enough? lol they're just too dumb
Which again raises the question of why Russian propaganda is so much more effective in the Western media environment where they can’t censor things or control shit than Western propaganda is. See, you’re distracted by a need to say, “Russia is the bad guy” that you’re losing sight of the actual question.
No, you're just asking dumb shit for the sake of asking it. The West just isn't shitting out propaganda on its population the way Russia is, it's not hard to understand.
The Russian oligarchs don’t suppress our wages, bust our unions, and gouge our prices, not because there’s any kind of moral difference but because they’re not in a position to do so.
They don't because they're not in charge of your fucking country. But they do all that shit and worse to their own population. Russian kleptocracy is incomparably worse to whatever equivalent you want to draw in the US. Wtf are you on about.
In “my region?” My region is about as far away from Ukraine as it’s possible to be on planet Earth.
Which might explain why you're so blissfully ignorant of the Russian scourge.
being an “oragutan rapist criminal coup attempter” doesn’t actual affect the average person’s life in any tangible way
That's a super dumb take. He's made/is making a shitload of decision that negatively affect millions.
Right-wingers make it a partisan issue by conveniently dangling the debt over any spending they dislike. Also, while you mention Biden's debt increase, not only was Trump much worse, but not all increases are equal in kind. If a president increases the debt to keep the country standing during a difficult period, sure, good stuff. On the other hand, if the president increases the debt just to provide tax cuts that mainly benefit his rich friends, then not so good, these aren't the same in any way despite both being increases.
Anyone who genuinely cares about the national debt wouldn't want Trump in power. The piss-dribble amount of aid the US has sent to Ukraine is definitely not a factor, and if you still think it is, go ahead and let us know what percentage of the budget has gone to Ukraine and then compare that to the US lend-lease program. The reason people only care to question what they get in return for Ukrainian aid yet don't ask the same of Israel is because that's what right-wing media programmed them to do. Is that clearer?
But the group of people we were talking about about being influenced was Americans, so it would be fairly natural to assume that I was talking about them influencing our own population, or that I was leaving it ambiguous. If you wanted to jump to the conclusion otherwise, you should’ve clarified.
If your statements are ambiguous then, don't be surprised if people pick one of the more obvious possible meanings. I'm not the one who has to clarify your statements. Regardless, nothing changes. Russian influences both their domestic and western populations more than the West influences their domestic or Russian populations. The West has freedom of information flows the likes of which the Russians have never known in their whole useless, pillaging, and degenerate existence. Even under clowns like Trump, the US press is more free than Russia's.
the US government was spreading COVID/vaccine disinformation in the Philippines.
I wouldn't use the trash that Trump pulls as valid examples of how the West acts, US leaders don't typically threaten allies with takeover or bend over to Russia. He's indisputably an anti-western piece of shit that falls into the same bucket as Putin. Other than that, try not to fetch US examples from the cold war as valid comparisons to contemporary actors like Putin, otherwise it just seems like you're stretching. It's been generations, expectations of international behavior aren't the same.
Furthermore, these intelligence agencies have interests that are more directly contrary to the American people than the Russian government does. They represent the interests of the rich, and the US rich are the most direct and primary enemy of the US poor.
Really? Russian kleptocracy aligns more with its population and doesn't represent the interests of the rich? The country that still lacks indoor plumbing for ~20% of the population? The country that is throwing its people into the meat grinder to steal foreign land? Good one.
We should only worry about a less well-funded, less connected intelligence community with less directly opposed interests, because, what? They’re foreigners?
Because they're destroying democracies in your region. "less directly opposed interests"? only if you're a vatnik lmao. If you are though, feel free to buy the first ticket to Moscovia, assuming you're not there already.
Is what you actually said, I didn't recall it too well but I wasn't "lying". Knowing he was going to put them in government was easily predictable to anyone with open eyes. Buying the "Trump distanced himself from project 2025" bs is pure retardation.