TechNom (nobody) @ technom @programming.dev

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2 yr. ago

Do you know how crappy the discord client is? Even element with all its flaws behaves better.

We don't ask for forums because we don't want features of Discord. We ask for forums because we want features that Discord does not offer:

1. Ability to search the discussions from a web search engine
2. Proper segregation of threads - a question followed by related replies (similar to github discussions, issues and PRs)
3. Ability to back up the discussion history, so that it doesn't disappear if the server goes down.
4. Ability to operate unimpeded if the silo operator decides to monetize the information by holding it hostage.

Note: Privacy is not what we need here. We need the solutions to open source problems to be public - especially, searchability.

Anything else that can:

1. Segregate topics clearly, without stuffing all of it into a single stream
2. Can be queried from a web search engine.

Discourse is a great choice - it meets both criteria. Even phpbb meets the requirements.

Even Zulip is objectively better than Discord. It meets point 1 very well. I don't know how well it does in point 2.

Wow! You are so deluded, thinking of yourself as a cool new kid with cool new tech (Discord) fighting against old people. What you don't get is that people are protesting the use of Discord for something it's not suited to. There's no generation gap in it. The best of the youngest developers I know have the same opinion. Perhaps it's time for you to reflect on your own standing.

Ooh! I'm surprised that somebody made the same conclusion, but from a different perspective.

There is one possible explanation for that conundrum. There are two types of people who are looking for solutions:

1. Those who want quick answers. They don't want to do the research - to see if the problem has been addressed before. They don't care about if the question has been asked before.
2. Those who prefer searching for solutions. They don't like joining any community just to search for those solutions.

Group 2 is going to be very invisible to you (maintainers), because they ask questions only if they can't solve the problem themselves and nobody has asked it before. (I know this because that's me). This group isn't a minority.

Group 1 is the vocal type that you are more likely to interact with, since their first instinct is to ask. If you provide them a choice between forums and chat rooms, they always choose chats because that's where they can get away with providing minimal background information on their questions and doing minimal to no research.

This doesn't mean that the majority of your users are happy with chatrooms. It's just that your observations are going to show this survivorship bias.

I can't understand how the people advocating for Discord in place of support forums can be so tone deaf about the core complaints others have about Discord.

Discord's search feature is worthless to me and a huge section of others. The search results don't show up on web searches. Web search indices are important because they aggregate information from many sources. Forums like Discourse don't have that problem. With Discord, you instead have to install a shitty electron app and register an account just to do the above mentioned search. Sometimes, they even force you to give them your phone number. No - I don't want to do that for every software problem I need to resolve. Even plain mailing list archives are miles ahead in that aspect.

Meanwhile, the community discussions are stuck inside a proprietary silo that appears convenient until the company decides to profit from it through eventual and inevitable enshittification. At that point, the rest of the world will be left looking for a way to free those discussions.

That lazy culture is exactly why discord is bad for the job. I search for solutions first, instead of barging in with a question that may have been asked and resolved a thousand times before.

Recommending the use of a software for a purpose it wasn't meant or designed for, is the real bad argument. There are a lot of projects that use forums for support questions just fine. Instead when you offer a chat room, people will try to get away with quick answers. But it rarely ends up like that and all the conversation that ensues also becomes buried.

Short lesson - use software for what it's meant for. Don't shoehorn a support forum's job to a chat application simply because people already use it.

I didn't advocate for IRC. I'm strongly on the side of forums. But in case you want to compare, IRC is still a better deal than Discord. IRC has loggers and searchable web archives where it matters. Discord on the other hand is holding the conversation hostage. Someday the closed nature of discord will come to bite. The honeymoon isn't going to last forever.

Exactly!

Discord is an OK chat app. But it's TERRIBLE as a support forum. It's precisely the latter that everyone is complaining about.

After reading the comments on several communities including Lemmy, reddit, YouTube and several others, I don't get the feeling that FOSS users are as enthusiastic about discord as you portray. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps it's a restriction that you impose on your users?

Besides, all the bells and whistles of Discord don't solve the biggest gripe that I have with it - the searchability and discoverability of questions and answers. Despite the history recording in Discord, it acts essentially as an information black hole. People's efforts in solving problems are just lost because they can't be found again.

And finally, there's one thing that corporate social media has proven time and again. Eventually all of them pivot for some reason or another. Perhaps they want to monetize the platform on unacceptable terms (like reddit recently). That will happen to discord too some day. They are holding the community content hostage. Don't make the mistake of thinking that they won't ever try to make money off it, cutting the community from it.

• Ability to search answers without having to join a 'server'

IRC would have been the best tool if it did session logging instead of requiring the use of bouncers. IRC is text-only, nonproprietary and completely distraction-free.

But you don't have to use IRC. There are more modern federated protocols like Matrix and XMPP that do session logging. There are quite a lot of FOSS communities on them that are very active.

However, the main complaint here isn't about Discord vs other chat protocols. It's about the use of Discord as a community support forum. Unlike forums like Discourse, Discord messages aren't searchable on the web. If a person asks a question on it and gets a solution, it's then lost forever. Another person with the same question has to ask again. It completely defeats the utility of FOSS - of reusing someone else's solutions.

Discord is absolute trash if you're a user searching for solutions. It simply doesn't turn up in web searches. Why would you want your users to ask the same questions again and again?

The PM?

Torvalds really worked on his attitude and it shows. It's pretty evident from his interviews that he doesn't want the attention due to brash behavior. Even this news article is hyperbolic. He is just trying to get a point across. He's pretty much self restrained otherwise.

Linus does that only to experienced guys - not beginners. People who should know better.

There are a lot of instances where that may not be practical. The maintainer may be indisposed or may be even passed away. Perhaps we shouldn't attach too much significance to the name. Instead, make projects more discoverable and get creative with the names.