sweng @ sweng @programming.dev

Posts

1

Comments

206

Joined

2 yr. ago

You are right, it's not your job to educate me. I would, however, hsve thought the purpose of discussing things is to try to convince others you are correct. Generally that is done by e.g. providing facts supported by sources. If all you csn say is "do your own research", then what is the purpose of saying anything at all? If you have no interest in convincing me that I am wrong, why engage at all? I'm genuinly curious. At lest my purpose has been from the start to challenge your viewpoint by trying to understand your arguments by asking clarifying questions, and providing rebuttals bssed on facts (e.g. citing specific articles, referring to specific referendums etc.).

I truly want to understsnd why you think the people of e.g. Donbas would have supported an invssion pre-2014, but when I ask for e.g. what sources you base something on you switch argument.

I believe what facts show me, not what I want.

Yes, you were indeed quite clear. By absolutely refusing to say how elections legitimized the invasion, it is clear elections indeed did not legitimize it. That is why you pivoted to apparently saying that because Ukraine was once part of Russia, the population clearly must want it, even though it was thoroughly rejected already in the 1991 referendum (see how easy it is to mention a specific referenfum).

That in no way answers the question.

You yourself mentioned the elections and thst they legitimize the intervention. I want to know in which way? Is it because the intervention was "requested by an elected government" and thus by definition represents the will of the people, or is it because the result of the election reflects the population's desire for an intervention?

But you mow seem to claim there is some third form how the intervention was legitimized that has nothing at all to do with the elections?

So let's take a step back: is the intervention legitimized by an election, and if so, which one, or is it legitimized by the historical composition of the Soviet Union as you now seem to claim?

Ok, what is the third option then?

Are you saying that any action taken by an elected government, even if it e.g. goes against what was promised during the election, and even if it has only e.g. 51% support, by definition has the support of the entire people?

If you don't mean that, then please tell me which election you think indicated that the people wanted to be invaded? Was it the 2012 parliamentary election? Some other election? What exactly about that election result makes you think the people supported the intervention? Wss it the success of some specific candidates or parties with known agendas? Something else?

If you do mean that a government always by definition can do whatever and still represent the people, does that not mean that Russia can end the war no matter the popular opinion?

It would be good to know which of these two opinions you hold.

It isn't, and I did not say so. But I'll go ahead and use the same logic as you, and conclude that your understanding of the war is not based on any information at all, since you have not mentioned a single source so far.

If we go back to the actual article, and the sources it cites, it looks like the will to fight is still there, so what you say does not appear to be true.

Perhaps you care to provide sources to the contrary?

Similarly, you say Putin can't stop the war, because he is afraid of the Russian people. Is it not also true that stopping the war is incredibly unpopular in the west too? Is Putin as weak as the western leaders? I thought he had massive support from the population and that the people respects his opinion?

I'm struggling with you not being able to provide a date for some election or referendum from before the invasion where the people in any way would have indicated that they wish for an intervention.

As you are unable to do so, I conclude that we agree that the people did indeed not wish to be annexed, so that settles thaz point.

You tell me. I'll quote you again:

Donbas has had election long before it INVITED Russia to intervene on its behalf.

So when was the election you had in mind that legitimizes the request for intervention.

Ok, when were those elections held. It is a simple question you refuse to answer. Can you provide a date?

What will happen in the end is that Russia will win and dictate terms, the only question is how many more people have to die before westerners accept that.

You answered yourself where the millions come from.

You agree that Putin could stop the war, but can not see why it would make sense to not kill millions. That requires a particular disregard for life typical of Russia, and then russians act surprised when people hate them.

I quote yourself:

Donbas has had election long before it INVITED Russia to intervene on its behalf.

So again, when was this election held? It's a simple question. I'm not sure why you are avoiding answering it, and instead providing sources about an election held in 2022.

The very first sentence in thr very first source says the referendum was held in September 2022, while Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022. If my math checks out, September comes after February. Or are you referring to some other referendum? Could you be more specific?

To avoid the death of millions of Russians and Ukrainians. I've answered multiple times.

So, now we agree that Russia could end the war immediately, regardless of what the west does, but chooses not to, leading to the death of millions of Russians and Ukrainians.

Intetesting how the article still uses the claim from the source, without commenting at all why this particular figure that supports the narrative is correct, but the other, that does not support it, is incorrect? Why link to a source you know can't be trusted? Why not simply use a reliable source instead?

You are avoiding my question. Can Russia end the war immediately, or do they need permission from the west? Yes or no. If you do not answer, I will just assume thst you agree with me that Russia can end the war unilaterally, and Putin chooses not to (because he chooses not to, as "winning" is more important thsn millions of lives).

A great way not answering my question. When was this election held on Donbas that resulted in the invitation of Russian troops?

That has literally nothing to do with what I just wrote? I said nothing about the reason for the war.

Again, can Russia end the war immediately, ss you claimed, or do they need permission from the west, like you also claimed?

I don't remember any elections before Russian troops arrived (aka the little green men). When exactly were these elections held?