shatal @ shatal @lemmy.world

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Joined

2 yr. ago

The latest UN Document for Children and Armed Conflict report https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/atf/cf/%7B65BFCF9B-6D27-4E9C-8CD3-CF6E4FF96FF9%7D/S_2023_363.pdf , item 95 - identifies and calls to stop PIJ and Hamas from "killing and maiming and the recruitment and use of children"

This is the most official source on the matter.

Netanyahu is a political animal.

He doesn't care about the hostages, the Palestinians and most of the Israelis. He just barely cares about some of them.

He has one and only one objective here - to win back the 50% votes that he lost because of the terror attack. He's already blaming the army and those who protested against him, saying that this attack was made possible because of them. According to Israeli media he has PR advisors with him when selecting military objectives and targets to help him choose the best option that will win him the more votes back.

If this goes on I think that there's a chance that we'll see a military coup in Israel.

Don't ask to be spoon fed information - that's how you get incorrect and inaccurate info.

Here, a simple google search to start with https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza+children+soldiers

You keep attacking straw men.

There are children soldiers and Gaza. There are 16 and 17 years old (and younger) that have active combative roles. You don't have to look far to find them, just go to the Hamas and Gaza social media profiles and see the profiles of their operatives.

It's deplorable, it's tragic, but it's the reality.

I'm not redefining childhood and I'm not supporting killing of children. I do say that when reading these kind of reports you should be aware that they show only a part of the information.

So by avoiding any action you would allow them to fire the rocket.

I understand and respect that.

It's a huge gray area and just one example of the complex morality component of this conflict.

Reasoning? Critical thinking? Logic? Seeing things as complex rather than one side is 100% correct and the other is 100% at fault? Answering to the point instead of bombastic statements or disinformation aimed to trigger emotional responses?

Stop behaving like a fanatic.

I really couldn't say in this case, and I'm very happy that I'm not the one that has to make this choice . Quite a few soldiers in conflict areas lost their lives because they couldn't either.

And while at it, could you please clarify the morality of killing kids in their beds by bombing the houses they are living in?

Read my first sentence in the original message.

So the terrorist designation all depends on the point of view and who’s in charge

There's point of view and there is the international law. The legal terms is that the IDF is a country's military and as such it is expected to uphold international treaties, it is held to high standards and it receives a lot scrutiny when it goes out of line or makes mistakes. Hamas is a terror organisation and therefore none of this applies to it, but also killing its operatives is not considered murder or a war crime.

If you're asking for my personal opinion - it's about intent. Organisations that have the clear intentions to kill and hurt as many civilians as possible are clearly terrorist organisations. Internationally recognised organisations that do not and try to minimise civilians casualties are not. Everything in between is a case by case gray area.

I can't attest to what the average person in Gaza thinks, but I reckon after 20 years of Hamas rule a lot of the people are already indoctrinated and their world view, specifically regarding Jewish people, is at least somewhat detached from reality. This is clearly reflected in the pro Palestinian Arabic social media profiles.

Bigger font doesn't make you more right.

You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the “real” number of children victims

That's just the thing with manipulating numbers - we can't do the math. That's why it's so effective and why you need to apply critical reading to these kind of reports.

And if they were armed teens, should we kill them

Answer me this - say you have a group of people preparing to launch a rocket. That rocket is inaccurate but they aim it towards a city. There's a high chance that you'll be able to intercept it, but there's always a chance that it'll fall on a building and kill civilians.

You can target this group, drop a bomb on them and stop them from firing this rocket. Now you learn that 2 of them are 17 years old. Do you drop the bomb? Or do you let them fire the rocket?

You're ignoring the main points and attacking a straw man again.

I was referring to "It’s small wonder that people support Hamas and children join the only force that seems to be fighting for them".

There's little love (and that's a huge understatement) between Hamas and the PLO and children in the west bank rarely join Hamas.

You need to get out of whatever echo chamber you're in.

The only thing that’s really propaganda here is your comment

How so?

A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child

I agree, but I'll copy what I answered the other comment about this exactly: It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.

in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.

You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.

A worldwide charity that’s existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda

Absolutely, 100%. Human rights organisations are not unbiased news outlets - they have agendas and objectives. Their objectives are commendable ones, and the work they do is invaluable, but they still utilise propaganda as a means to an end. As good and important as this end is, their reports should be received with the same amount of caution and critical thinking as any report coming from anyone with an objective in this.

you say that one is too many but then you say “don’t fall for this guys, it’s not nearly that many

That's just a straw man. I never suggested that it's not that many. It can be 3,257 and it could be 0. I just pointed out the information manipulation.

Are you saying it’s ok to murder minors because they’re armed

It's never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.

Another point for you to consider is that traditionally, in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.

You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.

Just one inaccuracy - there were no settlers in Gaza for nearly 20 years.

To make it perfectly clear - the fact that children are dying is reprehensible and it should be stopped. Even if one innocent child died, from both sides, it's one too many.

That being said, this is a very good example of propaganda by partial information and numbers manipulations.

The UN report in question identifies anyone under the age of 18 as a child. The Al-Qassam brigades recruit teens from the age of 16 to active combative roles (some reports suggest an even younger age).

It's impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens, and the UN report references that. The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.

And I'm saying that you're wrong. The Arab-Jewish conflict can be traced long before Israel and many Jews lived or arrive to the area before many of the Palestinians.

It's a very complex conflict, that it's currently deadlocked and unsolvable. The colonisation in the west bank is just one small part of it, and the easiest one to solve. Presenting it as if it's the main or only issue is what I meant by Americanising the conflict.

Really? that's odd, where did I say that?

They literally raided for less than a day and than ran back with hostages

That's incorrect - the Israelis continued to capture and kill them inside Israel even a week after the attack. Some of the terrorists came with provisions that were meant to last for a long time, until the area calmed down, and then to launch a second attack from the inside.

Hamas released videos from the tunnels showing stockpiles of weaponry and supplies. The hostages also testified that they showered every other day, while the rest of Gaza is essentially cut from water supply. Those water had to come from somewhere.

Al Jazeera is a Qatar funded news outlet, and the Qatari government has tight relationship with Hamas. I would take their reports cautiously.

Reuters and AP are the most unbiased it seems, but it's always a good practice to follow multiple outlets - both pro and against each side.

You're mixing Gaza and the west bank.

This is about Gaza and Hamas. The IDF had no presence in Gaza for 20 years now and Israel has not displaced anyone from there since 1967.

Unless your argument is that Hamas represents all the Palestinians everywhere?