pinkdrunkenelephants @ pinkdrunkenelephants @lemm.ee

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265

Joined

2 yr. ago

What could I possibly answer to a rant about opinions that do not belong to me?

Well, you wrote 2 pages of denials, dismissals, and meaningless diatribes that have nothing to do with anything to do just that, so fucking get with it, spanky. You started it and I'll finish it. You want to force dumb, dangerous, evil shit down our throats and then backtrack like a coward when you're called on it? Then this is what you get. Actions have consequences, motherfucker.

I am not pretending anything

I refuse the idea of having to make a balanced preamble for every comment to deflect this objection.

Ex falso quodlibet.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt with you, is it?

Now we enter in the realm of lies, lack of ability to read or straight up bad faith.

I honestly think that your method to carry on a conversation is completely dishonest,

Projection is for movie screens, not internet arguments.

Okay, so, top line: the name of your game: denial, projection, blame the victim.

You are so wrong in your (to be honest, ridiculous) attempt to paint my own ideas.

Holy fuck is your dishonesty and blatant motte-and-baileying real. Yes, that is your position. You are actively arguing that Ukraine using a drone on a fucking airport building is a war crime because attacking civilians is always a war crime regardless of circumstances, even though no one adheres to that way of thinking. You even say it several times in this post. Like here:

Despite this, I have specifically mentioned that I’d rather let Russia be the only one committing war crimes.

Implying Ukraine is committing a war crime by attacking an airport, a common target in a war, to force a nuclear aggressor to stop committing genocide on their own people.

You completely miss the point of stuff like the Geneva Convention and other war treaties. Those treaties are put into place because of pragmatic and practical considerations, not feelings, and it is the spirit of the treaty that matters, not the treaty itself. Ukraine is trying to protect their citizens from genocide. Russia's citizens are suffering the very real consequences of their own actions in supporting said genocide.

Ukraine is a social entity made up of people like all countries are. They have the basic natural right to prioritize their citizens' lives over others, including Russia's. Ukraine does not have to care about Russia because Russia is threatening Ukraine's ability to live and Ukraine has the unilateral, natural right to use every means available to protect its life, including drone attacks on airports. EVERY country has that right.

THAT is the basic principle everyone else gets that you don't. It is, how did you put it? Basic. BASIC IN ALL CAPS.

And that principle trumps the complaints of Russia's citizenry who categorically support the invasion of Ukraine. If they didn't want to be attacked then they wouldn't have been dumb enough to support a regime trying to invoke genocide and nuclear war.

Russia's people brought it completely upon themselves. Period. Full stop.

We in the U.S. deserved and got the same with 9/11 and it's the same now. And ultimately, we look back on our own actions in shame, which is likely what the people of Russia will do.

Where is the lack of empathy in defending the fact that people who are outside a conflict should not be killed?

By insinuating those people have no agency or moral culpability in supporting literal nuclear tyranny, ignoring the reality of Russia's stances and actions, and categorically demanding Ukraine surrender and submit to genocide rather than have access to every means available to force Russia to stop.

By framing the situation in black and white whereas you accuse people like me of the exact same thing as a negative when you use the same reasoning to condemn rape, bullying and abuse victims who fight back against their oppressors or even when we morally condemn abusers and rightly and justly call for violence against them.

Because you DON'T care about human life. You ONLY care about yourself and your feelings.

So wrong that I actually don’t refute the idea of violence at all, I am not a pacifist in that sense at all. In your example, if the bullied kid went raping the bully’s mom I would then think that the bullied kid is wrong, though. This is a more fit example.

Stop fucking lying. You falsely frame that drone attack as unnecessary and cruel and you haven't considered that that drone attack and several others that went down over the past year are either attempts to assassinate Putin or setting the groundwork to invade Moscow, which Ukraine -- probably quite rightly -- perceives as their only means to put a stop to Putin's bullshit and prevent him from launching a nuclear strike on their country or the world.

The rest of the world should have invaded Russia long ago, but people like you bitched and cried on the same grounds and look what happened. Now Zaphorzhiza's plant is rigged with bombs. Now one of Ukraine's biggest dams was blown up, causing the very civilian casualties you are parading right now in front of us.

This is a fucking war and Ukraine's survival is far more important than anyone in Russia's, period, full stop. And we make that distinction because unlike you, we're NOT deluded inhuman scumbags divorced from reality. We're certainly not perverse enough to equivocate a drone attack on an airport in a war with a nuclear power that has literally raped Ukraine's people en masse with a bullying victim raping his bully's mom.

Because a more detailed comparison is that bully being a white racist kid in a white racist neighborhood who rounded up the other kids to go bomb the victim's house, a Black family's house, kill his father, kidnap his baby sister, and rape the victim's mother before his eyes, before forcibly conscripting the victim in their little lynching gang to go kill the next Black family down the street.

And here you are, telling the nerdy Black kid down the street that he can't launch a drone to blow them up after the police, in collision with the racist bullies' families, that they categorically refuse to do anything about it. And that drone? The rich mixed family on the other side of town mailed it to our next victim, with the explicit intent of using it against the bullies.

Because that's what's actually been happening during the Ukraine invasion.

Civilian casualties are going to happen whether you like it or not and the rest of the world is right to rather Ukraine do it to ensure their own survival instead of Russia alone with no words of condemnation or cynical attempts to exploit philosophical debates to undermine their ability to do so like you're trying to do here.

You're HURTING Ukraine and victims everywhere by arguing this.

You're disgusting and vile. You make me sick.

Who the fuck are you to dictate to me what my morality is?

Do you not get that other people think differently than you and that we don't view moraity as purity? That we understand that morality is entirely different from and means more than what you think it does?

Here, let me fix that for you:

Similarly do you think being wronged justifies you abandoning your morality? pride?

Because that is what morality is for you: nothing but pride, whereas people like me care about reducing suffering in the world and a better outcome for everyone.

I am not enabling anything by condemning the general idea of attacking civilians.

Actually yes you are, because you are

1. Motte-and-baileying yourself by pretending this is about a general idea and not a very real war and a very real, extremely necessary attempt on Ukraine's part to stop the genocide of their own people and to stop Putin's regime from starting a nuclear war.
2. Only talking about Ukraine and doing nothing to condemn Russia's actions, explicitly defending its people even, who have shown plainly that they can and will do anything to destroy Ukraine and bring NATO, and the rest of the world, to its knees.
3. Displaying a black-and-white way of thinking and a complete lack of empathy, which people like you accuse anyone who challenges you of doing non-fucking-stop, demanding we ignore basic facts, demanding we ignore the very real and ugly consequences of what you want and remove reality from morality in general, fundamentally stripping morality of its meaning and purpose

You're the kind of person who would look at the quiet kid who snapped and beat the shit out of the bully who had been abusing them for years, non-stop, while ignored and sometimes even blessed by the adults, and you would scream at this kid "I DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT HE DID TO YOU, YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE VIOLENCE IS ALWAYS WRONG, YOU'RE EXPELLED!"

And the bully would look at you and laugh, because you are his perfect useful idiot, and he purposefully exploits adults like you who think that way to get away with harming innocent people for kicks.

And I am the neighbor at the PTA meeting who has been watching this from their security cameras on their front lawn, sick and tired of your enabling shit, telling you "No, YOU are wrong; that quiet kid is 100% justified in using violence because he is being abused and you refused to directly intervene to stop it yourself, and you are therefore being a piece of shit."

And you are that Karen who is not listening because morality for you isn't about the real world and how real people are suffering, it's about your ego, your feelings, and controlling other people by claiming and fighting over the moral high ground.

And you care NOT for the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children who were kidnapped and are being held in Russia somewhere, for which an invasion is the only hope of getting them back.

And you care NOT for the fact that Russia already rigged the Zaphorzhiza plant to blow, which will cause the largest radiation disaster in world history if Putin is not removed before giving the order to blow it up.

And you give Not One Single Fuck for life on this Earth, because you arbitrarily decided any action on Russian soil is wrong regardless of what they do to Ukraine, which is you siding with Russia whether you want to admit it or not. You'll lie and you'll scream that you are not siding with Russia when your actions say otherwise.

Because like all deontologists, you are a liar, enabler and scammer, who only cares about you and your feelings.

This is why we reject deontology, and why we embrace consequentialism, and why we side with the quiet kid and ignore the morally bankrupt adults who refused to save him when they complain about his violence, because they were always on the side of the bully by virtue of doing nothing about him and everything about his victim when his victim acts.

Deontology is fucking vile.

Russia rigged the Zaphorzhiza plant's cooling ponds with explosives. Sauce: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/05/russia-has-planted-suspected-explosives-on-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-roofs-says-zelenskiy

It's just a bunch of dumbass Russia applogists trying to squeeze blood from a stone to bolster their dipshit leader making something of this.

Well, by taking that kind of stance you're enabling Russia to do whatever it wants including outright genocide against civilians, so opposing the drone attacks on those grounds is nonsensical and ill-thought-out. And irrelevant, anyway, because civilians are going to die regardless of our stances and there are bigger, more serious issues at stake. Like, you know, nuclear war and billions of citizens dying if Ukraine isn't allowed to take Putin out like they're apparently hankering for.

"Certain things are banned and that's the end of it" doesn't work on me. There's never an end. There's always gonna be a debate. And if you truly felt that way, you'd support everything possible to stop Russia because they are the ones threatening the world with nuclear annihilation, and by your stance, so are you.

You don't actually give a shit about human life with that reductive way of thinking you want us to adopt. You're hurting it far worse than some piddling drone attack on some airport.

The moment you start measuring who is right in doing a war crime and who is wrong, is the moment you cancel the concept of war crime, which instead I think is a hard lesson history thought us.

Nowhere in the history of ever is anyone doing this by unilaterally supporting Ukraine. Morality does not work like that and morality means more than that. This is exactly why we judge the morality of a situation based on its real-world circumstances, and why we reject deontology as the immoral, corrupt insanity that it is, because of how it reduces and strips any real meaning from any real situation it's applied to. This is about other people and life on this planet, not your feelings.

Well, we'll take being called childish over enabling nuclear genocide.

Out of the mouths of babes comes wisdom.

I don't care if it's childish or not, it's true, and your consistency and integrity matter whether you like it or not. "He hit me first" is the most important factor in these calculations because circumstances are what makes us human, and callously dismissing them in the name of a perverse way of thinking that only leads to disaster to victims and enables abusers like Russia is, to put it mildly, what some dumbass Karen would do when she's tired of dealing with her kid fighting at school every day and doesn't actually give a shit about her own kid's well-being.

You sound like some tired and angry soccer mom who never wanted to have kids in the first place and is only thinking about their cats and wine.

And look at what the U.S. did in Iraq, including slinging around nuclear threats, and you find they were indeed justified in trying to take down who were in their eyes the western beast that did nothing but use and abuse them for politics and oil. Because they kind of were justified, and we did bring it upon ourselves.

Central and South America could fucking invade and they'd be justified over what the CIA did to them.

Hell, Muslim countries could invade China to save the Uyghers from actual genocide by that logic and I'd agree to it.

I do not pretend the U.S. is any better or beyond reproach or any other country. I just accept that being a nuclear bully has consequences.

Principles are based on real world circumstances and to argue we must ignore them just to make you happy is to completely oppose morality and fundamentally misses the point of what morality is all about. You don't believe in principle, you believe in forcing innocent people to suffer for your feelings and sensibilities, which is all deontological thinking ever really accomplishes. This is why we embrace consequentialism, which founds principles in real world circumstances and considerations, and properly defines morality as an institution meant to benefit such, not your fantasies.

Come on back to the real world now

I'm sorry but I'm not about to hold people accountable for dumb things they said as a teen.

There were reports a month ago stating Russian troops rigged some of the cooling ponds inside the plant with explosives, so... yeah. The pro-Russia concern trolls in here trying to drum this drone attack up as an excuse to undermine Ukraine when they don't want anyone to acknowledge that Putin's actions on the nuclear front literally justify doing anything, up to and including the sane atrocities he inflicted on Ukraine if not more, simply to get rid of him and prevent a nuclear disaster.

It's like those trolls simply do not get it's not just about Ukraine but quite literally life on the Earth.

That type of "same-as" fallaciousness does not work among a generation that knows better and you'll find no quarter here with it. Russia is NEVER going to be the victim in this and nothing Ukraine does will EVER be morally equivalent simply because Russia is the aggressor slinging around nuclear threats to try to commit genocide. Drones attacking some buildings will never be that.

Ukraine could (and probably should) flat-out invade Russia and they still will always hold the moral high ground simply because of the circumstances.

See, here's one of them

The upside to that is that humans could and probably would just sneak nukes onboard their ships and set them off on the inside if they did try to invade, a tactic for which they'd have no real defense.

Any civilization that had those things, even rudimentary Trinity Test ones, are on a whole different playing field than any that came before by virtue of the nature of nukes, so it is reasonable that aliens would investigate nuclear powers first.

I am not judging you and when I was a kid, I too saw some shit. Many people have, it's very common. What's up for debate is whether it's aliens or not, is all.

I don't think you're crazy and you saw what you saw. It probably just wasn't aliens, it was likely some astronomical phenomenon. You could've seen a comet or an asteroid or a planet passing over the sun, that's what your description sounds like to me, anyway.

Honestly, I am worried that Russia has already planned to either blow Zaphorzhiza to smithereens, set off a nuke somewhere in Ukraine, or both; that Ukraine and NATO both know it and NATO countries are too cowardly to act, and so Ukraine feels they need to overthrow Putin's regime themselves before WW3 really kicks off... and if any of what I just said is right, it almost certainly will if they don't.

Russia running out of victims to throw in the meat grinder makes it all the more possible, and that should worry everyone.

Ladies and gentlemen, that is what a centrist really looks like ^^

And below, you can see what a centrist blatantly lying to your face looks like:

Gladly:

You're in here because you have befriended a bunch of right wingers, probably on their Discord even though they were banned from the platform years ago. You heard the rumors of how hateful and bigoted they are, but when you went to see what all the hullabaloo was all about, they were actually welcoming to you. Chill..Perhaps even kind. And their opposition to the lockdowns made sense, so you shacked up with them politically.

Cut to you seeing leftfam frothing at the mouth over blatant death threats you've become conditioned to automatically dismiss as overblown, because you know these people, and they wouldn't hurt you (snrrk), so a Trump supporter saying live on TV "kill 'em all" and a reporter agreeing with him must not be just that. It has to be a miscommunication, or the reporter didn't hear even though the guy said it twice, or any number of dumbass excuses you've already conjured up to protect your "friends".

Wake the fuck up, dumbass: the right wing are NOT your friends, they are not reasonable or principled or have your best interests at heart. They are petty, vindictive, immature and champing at the bit to get back at the left for the lockdowns, and that's why they are openly aggressive now. You are not "one of the good ones". They are not going to spare you either.

They want to kill anyone who doesn't agree with them or lives the way they want you to. They overturned Roe vs. Wade which has already killed and maimed people. Ron Desantis is putting out campaign ads bragging about the anti-LGBTQ laws he got passed in Florida, with fucking soldiers goose-stepping toward Nazi symbols. And now this.

They are openly saying they want to kill anyone who is different from them, and you are defending them.

You are a despicable piece of shit.

You should, because it gets worse. Much, much worse.

Dumbasses who unironically defend Stalin and Mao. Left authoritarians basically