Families upended by school shootings share trauma in push for gun law changes, but get mixed results
Jordan Lund @ jordanlund @lemmy.one Posts 63Comments 1,445Joined 2 yr. ago
Jordan Lund @ jordanlund @lemmy.one
Posts
63
Comments
1,445
Joined
2 yr. ago
Families upended by school shootings share trauma in push for gun law changes, but get mixed results
Jump
Kind of pointless to pick a single particular time and argue that something would or would not have stopped it without any actual data.
Agreed, but I'm not the one citing it as an example of why the state needed an open carry ban. Fact of the matter is it was a driveby shooting, not a case of someone open carrying shooting.
If guns were less prevalent and harder to get would it cause there to be less gun fatalities?
Sure, but that can't happen because of the 2nd amendment. It's a non-starter.
If you are harder on people committing gun crimes would there be less gun fatalities?
Not really, no. Mass shootings end in either suicide, life in prison, or the death penalty. Hasn't stopped them.
If it were illegal to carry large amounts of amnition around with you, would there be less gun fatalities?
Nope, because there's no danger in carrying ammo.
If it were illegal to carry around lots of weapons without being in a well-regulated militia, hence where police or other people would see you and go in that person's probably up to no good, would that cause there to be less gun fidelities?
That's not what the founders meant by "well regulated militia".
https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment2.html
"Further, the Court found that the phrase “well regulated Militia” referred not to formally organized state or federal militias, but to the pool of able-bodied men who were available for conscription.15"
If some kid rolls up and does a school shooting do we hold their families responsible?
In the case of the Crumbleys? Yes.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-michigan-high-school-shooter-ethan-crumbley-trial/story?id=98072544
Here's the trick... the Nashville shooter had no criminal record and bought the guns 100% legally. There is no gun restriction that would block someone who passes the background check from buying a gun.
BUT:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nashville_school_shooting
"Hale was under care for an emotional disorder and had legally purchased seven firearms, including three recovered from the shooting scene, between October 2020 and June 2022.[1]"
If someone is under psychological care, should that be allowed to pop up on a background check? Maybe not as an instant disqualification the way a court ordered commitment or conviction would, but as an advisory note? Leave it to the discretion of the firearms seller? "By the way, this person is undergoing psych care, you could be held liable if they use this firearm in a crime." That kind of thing?
Because right now, the only stuff that shows up on the background check are things that were ruled on by a judge, and sometimes not even all of those.
For example:
The guy who shot up Michigan State University:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Michigan_State_University_shooting
"McRae was arrested in June 2019 for carrying a weapon without a concealed pistol license.[38] Initially charged with a felony, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor unlawful possession of a loaded firearm as part of a plea agreement in November 2019.[39] He was originally sentenced to twelve months' probation, which was later extended to 18 months, and in May 2021, he was discharged from probation.[35] Because McRae was not convicted of a felony, his ban on possessing weapons ended with the end of his probation.[40]"
Arrested for a felony gun charge, pled out to a misdemeanor, did his time, did his probation, was allowed to buy guns again.
Had he been convicted of the felony, he would have been blocked from owning a gun. The misdemeanor was not a barrier and did not appear on the background check.
Maybe it should have? Maybe ANY gun charges, felony OR misdemeanor should bar you from gun ownership?
Can you imagine Beyonce? They would need new servers.
Legumes are a type of vegetable.
The hill I WILL die on is that mushrooms, as a fungus, are not.
It would be interesting measuring field of view.
I have a 65" 8K television in my living room with 7.1 Dolby Atmos/DTS:X and in general, I prefer that to the movie going experience.
Mental health issues are already a blocker on gun ownership, but only if it's adjudicated in court.
Maybe that needs to change for people ejected from the military.
Families upended by school shootings share trauma in push for gun law changes, but get mixed results
Jump
We already ban people from using guns. Felons, drug users, spousal abusers, etc. That's all part and parcel of filling out the purchase form.
Families upended by school shootings share trauma in push for gun law changes, but get mixed results
Jump
I'm not going to say it's "good" or "bad". It's the law, and the law is the law. It's a separate axis from good or bad. :)
Families upended by school shootings share trauma in push for gun law changes, but get mixed results
Jump
Not impossible with any other Supreme Court, but this one is vastly different from the one that ruled during the Assault Weapons Ban that expired in 2004.
Since then, ruling after ruling, the court has re-enforced and expanded gun rights. It's going to get ugly when they hear the AWB and high capacity bans out of California.
Here's a primer on how things have changed, I'll need to save this because it will come up again:
D.C. Vs. Heller - 2008:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller
"The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District's total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of "arms" that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional."
You can't ban an entire class of weapon, in this case handguns. But that would apply to ANY class, such as banning rifles, shotguns, and, yes, semi-automatic rifles.
McDonald vs. City of Chicago - 2010
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._City_of_Chicago
"the second amendment right recognized in Heller is fully applicable to the states through the due process clause of the fourteenth amendment. In so holding, the Court reiterated that "the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense" (id. at ___, 130 S. Ct. at 3026); that "individual self-defense is 'the central component' of the Second Amendment right"
Needed re-stating because D.C. is a unique legal entity and not a state. McDonald exists to say "Yes, states too."
Caetano v. Massachusetts - 2016
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caetano_v._Massachusetts
This is actually my favorite one of these because it goes in an unusual direction. Woman was being threatened by an abusive ex and bought a taser for protection.
MA charged her saying that tasers didn't exist at the time of the 2nd amendment, so she had no right to own one.
Enter the court:
"the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding" and that "the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States".[6] The term "bearable arms" was defined in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) and includes any ""[w]eapo[n] of offence" or "thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands," that is "carr[ied] . . . for the purpose of offensive or defensive action." 554 U. S., at 581, 584 (internal quotation marks omitted)."[10]
Anything you take into your hands for defense is allowed under the 2nd amendment. So, no, you don't have the right to a cruise missile or a tactical nuke, but if you can carry it, it's yours.
New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen - 2022
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Rifle_%26_Pistol_Association,_Inc._v._Bruen
This is the recent ruling that has everyone in a tizzy. First, because for concealed carry, it converted New York from a "may issue" state to a "shall issue" state:
"The constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not 'a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.' We know of no other constitutional right that an individual may exercise only after demonstrating to government officers some special need."[26]
And second, it sets a new standard by which all gun laws will now be measured:
"When the Second Amendment's plain text covers an individual's conduct [here the right to bear arms], the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. The government must then justify its regulation by demonstrating that it is consistent with the Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation. Only then may a court conclude that the individual's conduct falls outside the Second Amendment's "'unqualified command.'"
Aha! Makes sense!
My expectation is that the Court will rule that because it has not yet been adjudicated that Trump indeed "engaged in insurrection or rebellion", they will pass on ruling until we have a conviction in the 1/6 or Georgia cases.
Generally, when you take rights away from people, it's all based on court rulings. For example, you can't bar someone from voting or gun ownership without a felony conviction. There are exceptions, but a court ruling removes all doubt.
That's what got the Cowboys for Trump guy bounced out, he was convicted for 1/6 FIRST, then challenged over eligibility.
26th? I thought it was the 21st?
Families upended by school shootings share trauma in push for gun law changes, but get mixed results
Jump
Absolutely true.
So if we can't ban guns because of the 2nd amendment, and we can't report on psych care because that would drive people away from care, then what's the answer? 🤔 I don't see a way out of it unless you make mental health care and reporting mandatory.
Families upended by school shootings share trauma in push for gun law changes, but get mixed results
Jump
As long as the 2nd amendment is in place it's not possible to ban guns. It will not happen.
Now, that being said, if you don't like that, there is a process to fix it:
- Get two thirds of the House to agree on a new amendment. 290 votes out of 435. The problem with that is the House is currently struggling to get a 218 vote simple majority on basic things, like "Who is the House leader?" or "Can we fund the government?"
- Once you get that, then you need 67 votes in the Senate, the same body incapacitated by a 60 vote majority to overcome the filibuster placed on, well, everything. The Republicans in the Senate block everything.
- Assuming you get enough people for 1 and 2, now it goes to the states for ratification. You need 38 out of 50. To put that in perspective, in 2020 Joe Biden won 25 states + Washington DC. Donald Trump won 25 states. To pass a new gun amendment, you would need ALL 25 Biden states + 13 Trump states. Any Biden state that refuses to ratify means you need an extra Trump state. There are only 19 states with Democratic controlled state legislatures, which means a likelyhood of needing 19 Trump states instead of 13.
Families upended by school shootings share trauma in push for gun law changes, but get mixed results
Jump
The frustrating thing is the open carry ban would have had ZERO impact on that shooting:
"The young boy was shot and killed in a suspected road rage shooting last Wednesday near Isotopes Park. Police said someone in a Dodge Durango fired 17 shots at the car he was in when leaving the game, killing Froylan and wounding his 24-year-old cousin, Tatiana.
“The vehicle just pulled up on the side of them and started shooting,” Amaro said.
All of it happened with Froylan’s mother and baby brother in the back seat."
You could ban open carry, you could ban concealed carry, that would not have stopped that shooting.
There really isn't a way to know how it could have been prevented until we know who the shooter is.
Families upended by school shootings share trauma in push for gun law changes, but get mixed results
Jump
Here's the trick... the Nashville shooter had no criminal record and bought the guns 100% legally. There is no gun restriction that would block someone who passes the background check from buying a gun.
BUT:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nashville_school_shooting
"Hale was under care for an emotional disorder and had legally purchased seven firearms, including three recovered from the shooting scene, between October 2020 and June 2022.[1]"
If someone is under psychological care, should that be allowed to pop up on a background check? Maybe not as an instant disqualification the way a court ordered commitment or conviction would, but as an advisory note? Leave it to the discretion of the firearms seller? "By the way, this person is undergoing psych care, you could be held liable if they use this firearm in a crime." That kind of thing?
Because right now, the only stuff that shows up on the background check are things that were ruled on by a judge, and sometimes not even all of those.
For example:
The guy who shot up Michigan State University:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Michigan_State_University_shooting
"McRae was arrested in June 2019 for carrying a weapon without a concealed pistol license.[38] Initially charged with a felony, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor unlawful possession of a loaded firearm as part of a plea agreement in November 2019.[39] He was originally sentenced to twelve months' probation, which was later extended to 18 months, and in May 2021, he was discharged from probation.[35] Because McRae was not convicted of a felony, his ban on possessing weapons ended with the end of his probation.[40]"
Arrested for a felony gun charge, pled out to a misdemeanor, did his time, did his probation, was allowed to buy guns again.
Had he been convicted of the felony, he would have been blocked from owning a gun. The misdemeanor was not a barrier and did not appear on the background check.
Maybe it should have? Maybe ANY gun charges, felony OR misdemeanor should bar you from gun ownership?
He had no criminal record, so passed the background check.
That being said, there were MASSIVE red flags that COULD have been background check worthy:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robb_Elementary_School_shooting
"Ramos' social media acquaintances said he openly abused and killed animals such as cats and would livestream the abuse on Yubo.[128] Other social media acquaintances said that he would also livestream himself on Yubo threatening to kidnap and rape girls who used the app, as well as threatening to commit a school shooting.[126] Ramos' account was reported to Yubo, but no action was taken.[126][129] Up until a month before the shooting, Ramos worked at a local Wendy's and had been employed there for at least a year. According to the store's night manager, he went out of his way to keep to himself.[130] One of his coworkers said he was occasionally rude to his female coworkers, to whom he sent inappropriate text messages, and would intimidate coworkers at his job by asking them, "Do you know who I am?"[92] Ramos' coworkers referred to him by names including "school shooter" because he had long hair and frequently wore black clothing.[131]"
So, if you want to block people like this from passing a background check, what do we do?
Make social media platforms like Yubo mandatory reporters? "Hey, we have this user who may, in fact, be psychotic, just thought you should know!"
Or mandatory reporting of the inappropriate texts? Do you hold Wendy's or the cell carrier responsible for that?
Oh, absolutely agreed, but keep in mind that Heller was in 2008 and the court has only gotten MORE conservative since then, not less.
Here's a fun stat:
Looking just at the Supreme Court in my lifetime (have to start somewhere!), we have had 8 Republican Presidential terms and 6 Democratic ones. Not a dramatic difference, right? Now look at the Justices placed on the court:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/members_text.aspx
Nixon - 3
Nixon/Ford - 1
Reagan - 1
Reagan - 2
Bush Sr. - 2
Bush Jr. - 0
Bush Jr. - 2
Trump - 3
Carter - 0
Clinton - 2
Clinton - 0
Obama - 2
Obama - 0*
Biden - 1
54 years, 14 Republican Justices to 5 Democratic ones.