Sybil @ federatingIsTooHard @lemmy.world

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2 yr. ago

Okay, I see. If we are judging ideologies purely by “wouldn’t it be nice if” then anarchism is clearly superior.

you almost got me

Well, on second though, no. “wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t get defeated by fascists” certainly has a pretty nice ring to it…

i'm not saying i have a good plan. i'm saying i am suspicious of any plan that concentrates power, and i believe my suspicion is warranted.

which marxist project ended up stateless and classless?

Can you name a single revolution that succeeded without some concentrated power, democratically concentrated or otherwise?

you're going to need to define revolution and success and concentration, and at this point, we might as well just lay our cards on the table. you believe it's only practical to have a transitional state. i have a suspicion about anything that even smells like a state. we will not reconcile this in !memes today.

i don't think i'm misrepresenting your position. i feel i understand it, and i disagree about the practicality of setting up a system of oppression to end oppression.

if you have cops, you're not a fucking anarchist society. this shouldn't be hard to understand.

How far have they gotten in that century? Because honestly the whole “at it for a century” thing reeks of failure.

they got the fucking arch duke (and dozens of other heads of state). they blew up wallstreet. i think these are pretty big accomplishments.

large scale

this is a setup for a no-true-scotsman. i'll talk to you about anarchist societies, but i won't let you define them out of existence.

I think the anarchists in Spain have more of a claim to define anarchism than you tbh.

you don't get to define what i am.

We should define an ideology by its actions, not just its claims.

no. we should judge people by their actions. we should judge ideologies by their propositions.

anarchism and communism are the same thing.

Sorry, I set the bar too low.

Feasible plans for a classless society day one.

nothing like moving the goalposts to end the workday.

i'm opposed to prefigurative theories of revolution. we don't know what society will look like in every corner of the world without oppression. we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.

Have you never heard of the concept of a transitional state?

yes. it's why we split at the second international. i wish you all would give up on the transitional state.

And of course, there was no hierarchy in actual anarchist societies. /s.

we all know about the bootmaker, but i would say if there is an oppressive hierarchy, it's not anarchist.

It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.

that's not what you proposed to use as a metric. i'm not sure how to quantify them and, frankly, or what a good measure would be, i guess.

i do know that i don't trust anyone else to decide how i keep myself fed and safe. given the choice in constructing a revolution, i would empower individuals to a maximum degree and destroy concentrations of power wherever they're found.

How do you square that circle?

one has nothing to do with the other, except that hierarchies sometimes pretend to respect (or grant)rights, but the fact that they have the discretion means the rights, themselves, are fictions.

You’re literally like “authority means it is by definition a class society” and you don’t believe in rights?

right

Not even positive rights?

no

it's not new. gallianists have been at it for a century.

being invaded by imperialists is not an indictment of a society or its structure.

I don't believe in rights. at least, there's no such thing as an inalienable right, since governments can and do take them away. I'm not even sure how to begin to answer your question given that I think that you're talking about fictions. sort of like asking me which anarchist society had the most thetans, or protection spirits.

I didn't think that I'd have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure. but I guess it's true that some people still side with the wrong people at the second international.

if you're not building a classless stateless society, you're not a leftist. I'd be just as offended about being called a liberal as being called a tankie. statism is bad.