In other words, Market Socialism is nice in that it removes exploitation, but is no nearer to Communism than Capitalism. The leap to public ownership is no closer, just the relations of exploitation are removed.
How do we get to Communism, and what role can worker cooperatives play in that?
The solution is to perform a revolution and establish a Proletarian State. This is a hard requirement to begin with, otherwise you can’t simply accomplish Market Socialism, the bourgeoisie would never allow it.
Right, so market socialism is better than capitalism, and I'm arguing it is easier to get there than revolution. I'm also kinda arguing that market socialism will naturally lead to everyone just donating their belongings to the greater good once everyone is content with what they get from market socialism, otherwise I see it impractical to simply snatch private assets for public ownership. Lastly, I agree it would seem like the bourgeoise would never allow it, but things like Linux and the fediverse exist and they'll only get stronger and harder to beat with network effect.
Thanks, Cowbee! It seems to me, that in practice (as opposed to theory, not game), if socialism is 5 steps away on the chessboard, then market socialism has to be step 1, simply because that's where we are (1. markets aren't going away tomorrow, and 2. everyone currently has to engage in the economy one way or another). It's what is the 'adjacent next'. Changing everyone's minds all at once seems mathematically impossible. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is possible that all our collective energies might be better spent focusing on just step 1.
Suppose we replace all capitalists with worker cooperatives. What happens when two worker cooperatives compete in free market? We'll still be at capitalism, wont we?
Yes, understanding oneself and what we really control is part of understanding nature. Understanding trauma and stress are part of understanding & accepting nature.
Bad faith commenting can happen without notice, I can claim yours too. Whether it's flat earth or marijuana, it's not critical thinking skills to know what is obvious and taught in school. The idea of 'listening to the other side' and 'using words' to state your argument and change minds are thoughtful & courageous ideas that actually problem solve rather than merely win debates, remember the black dude who talked to kkk folks out of racism? Problem is that commenters are quick to reply and mods are quick to over-moderate because that is the quickest way to win the debate, no body cared to problem solve.
The answer is that the Proletarian state, one dominated by the Proletariat and not the Bourgeoisie, gradually wrests from the Bourgeoisie its Capital with respect to the degree that it has developed.
How does one get a Proletarin state? It seems that any state would be susceptible to corruption & greed? It's what we have everywhere in the world.
I would do X too if I was in the same situation, with the same genes, and the same upbringing, and same circumstances, and same influences, and same traumas, and same biases.
Behavior dictates the outward expression of inner motives.
Correct, but you can't control your motives as much as you like. Think as much as you want about this.
To assume that everyone would make the same choices, when presented with the same opportunities, is simply not congruent to the patterns of human behavior that we see in reality, regardless of era or culture.
Show me what patterns you've seen, but from my personal experience and reflection, this is incorrect. We can't control the opportunities, and we can't control our motives, hence we can't control our behavior. You will do what you were gonna do.
Polish your mirror and look deep, you are the universe as am I, as was Gandhi and as is Putin, capable of all good and all evil, all shaped by life like a rock shaped by a river. The rock has no choice but to take that shape. The rock is special but no more so than any other rock, so don't assume you'd do any different if you were in their situation.
If you dig up a skeleton, can you tell if that person was evil or charitable in his lifetime? We're all merely copies of each other and are equally capable of all the good and all the bad in the world depending on our individual circumstances and upbringings. Nothing is black and white and everything is gray. You'd be Putin too if you were in his shoes.
Yep, ASD. We are intelligent. We are perfectionists. We take our sweet time to learn about the world around us. Once we've learnt about something, we are quite sure of it, & hence we're strongly opinioniated on things we know. Stupidity, and not being able to see things correctly may even 'trigger' us, & hence we can come across as arrogant. We can see the forest for the trees, but we lose our minds because the rest of the world only sees the trees for the trees.
Thanks again!
Right, so market socialism is better than capitalism, and I'm arguing it is easier to get there than revolution. I'm also kinda arguing that market socialism will naturally lead to everyone just donating their belongings to the greater good once everyone is content with what they get from market socialism, otherwise I see it impractical to simply snatch private assets for public ownership. Lastly, I agree it would seem like the bourgeoise would never allow it, but things like Linux and the fediverse exist and they'll only get stronger and harder to beat with network effect.