Bobr @ bobr @lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org

Respect freedom of people who respect yours. Help each other. Fight togethe

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1 yr. ago

My mistake, you described things Russia is doing and then assigned the agency of those things to the president of Ukraine, so I’m sure you can see why I’d be confused!

Lol, really?

Russia is doing "Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties."?
Woah, now I see why everyone hates Russia! If Russia really has this power of forbidding people to leave the territory they do not control - we really need to destroy them at all cost, this power is too dangerous for anyone to have it.. /s

I had no idea that the president of Ukraine was in control of the Russian forces invading the country

Literally never said that, ok :)

So you want to sell me one incident

Holy fuck, and you are telling me that I'm dense... That's what happens every single day, it's in the mainstream western media for a long time now - https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html. Zelensky's regime kidnaps and beats people every single day, thanks to your support.
How many accidents would be enough for you to admit that Zelensky is terrorizing Ukrainians with your support? That's a rhetorical question of course, obviously Zelensky can do whatever he wants as long as Russians are dying as well, right?

You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for everyone Russia.

Why are you trying to make me responsible for the invasion? How is this my fault? How is this fault of every other (well, non-Nazi ones anyway) Ukrainian? Why do you support terrorizing, murdering and torturing all of us?

No, my "beef" is with Zelensky in particular, he is the one who actively tries to exterminate me and every other Ukrainian.

Hey I have a question. What precipitating circumstances made all of this necessary? Was there like, I dunno, another country that invaded or anything?

Yeah, it's cool that it justifies all the atrocities and tortures of his regime, right? Kidnapping people off the streets, beating them, holding them in basements for multiple days. Forbidding people to leave the country, making them stay in the bombed cities so that there are more casualties.

Not to mention the stuff you’re just outright lying about

Why wouldn't you specify what I'm lying about? :)

almost like you’re working in service of some other group that may or may not have an interest in this particular situation, but again, you’re insisting all this happened in a vacuum so that can’t be true!

I mean I guess that's true. I'm indeed part of such a group - a group of people who would like to not get murdered along with their entire families and all their friends by Zelensky's regime..

“Save lives” are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing

Woah... Holy shit, you actually said that... "kidnapping, torturing, killing" - literally what Zelensky's regime is doing.

Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done.

Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.

In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted

I know I know, all of us would gladly die for your interests, and those of us who wouldn't are Russian agents.

Okay, I’m moving into your living room and shooting your dog. If you or your family try to stop me, you’re a sadistic clown apparently.

Please tell me more about this analogy of yours.

He is a sadistic clown because he turned country into a mass prison where he kidnaps people off the streets, beats them and send them to the meatgrinder to die. And those who don't like it are literally tortured. All while you cheer his efforts.

The sadistic clown gets more and more pathetic...

No negotiations until we get Crimea back.

Ok we won't get Crimea. But no negotiatians until we get back to 2022 borders.

Ok we won't get back to 2022 borders. But no negotiations until someone makes Putin negotiate with me (???).

Turning Ukrainians into slaves who cannot leave the country are kidnapped off the streets and sent to die the most horrible deaths in the meatgrinder? Yes that's totally legal and absolutely moral, why are you even asking?

Making peace with Russia by admitting you lost the war to save hundreds of thousands of lives? That's like the most illegal and horrible thing ever.

extracted from the body of the post because I'm not sure whether this breaks the rules or not, so better get a comment removed than a post

Goncharenko (a member of Ukrainian parliament) shared a video depicting a result of such tortures.
WARNING: SHOCK CONTENT.
https://files.catbox.moe/lkm5g6.mp4

genocide. Which the Russians also attempt to commit against Ukrainians denying them their right for self--determination, my dear Russian friend.

Thank god Zelensky is not trying to commit genocide on Ukrainians denying them their right for self-determination by forbidding people to leave the country and kidnapping them off the streets 1 by 1 in front of their mothers/wives and sending them to the meatgrinder, am I right, my dear Western friend holding the moral high ground?

Unless it's auditted and open source then you should assume its spyware.

I do. I use Matrix and recommend it to all my friends.

"Telegram is spyware" was not the original thesis I replied to, it was about "operated by the enemy".

Sure, what exactly would you like to have a proof for?

I know, right? I was also shocked when I discovered that it's not just the evil-evil Russia who does the propaganda thing! :)

Is anything I've said a lie though? Or maybe misinformation? Or maybe I'm manipulating facts? Or maybe "Russian talking-points" is how you label inconvenient truth that you are not willing to accept? :)

Debunk what I've said, show everyone that I'm just a Russian propagandist (or even better - a bot) spreading lies and deceptions!
Ah yeah right, why do that if calling someone a "Russian larper" is a good enough argument for some folks... :)

Thanks, that was an interesting read :)

Of course it doesn't prove anything (especially that Telegram sends any information about Ukrainians to Russian government!), but at least those allegations indeed have more credibility than the usual "Russia bad". It also doesn't say anything about Durov doing something because he had financial problems. And what it definitely doesn't say is that "Telegram is operated by Russia".

Yeah, I hear this quite often :)

Every Ukrainian who doesnt want to die for Zelensky is a Russian, yeah yeah yeah heard that one more times than I can count.

Cheers :)

What gives those rumors credibility other than "Russia bad"?

If you have links to some sources with some facts - I'd very much like to read them

Russia literally wants Ukraine wiped out and yet the idiots unable to change an app on their phone because "network effects and habit"

The thing with Zelensky's propaganda is that externally (with people familiar with the situation only from CNN (or whever you get your information from..)) it works an order of magnitude better than internally.. :)

So "idiots" use Telegram because not only they see no threat in it (why would they?), but also because it helps to avoid the very real threat of "lawful mobilization actions" by the government.

Imagine entire country using coms software operated by the enemy.

Do I get it right that you know that

• Pavel Durov (the creator of Telegram) has left Russia after refusing to give government information on Ukrainians during 2014 protests (from his previous project - VK, also used by both people in Russia and Ukraine)
• Russian government's most extensive blocking campaign/attempt was targeted at Telegram
• Telegram's headquarters are in UAE

and still somehow make a conclusion that "it is operated by the enemy" (assuming that by enemy you mean Russian government)? I'd like to learn more about this logic :)