betheydocrime @ betheydocrime @lemmy.world

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16

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223

Joined

2 yr. ago

I understand what you're saying, and what you're saying is only concerned with individuals, not systems.

What I'm saying is that regardless of how many individual people turn that job down, the job listing at that wage will still exist. Eventually, someone who is down on their luck will become desperate enough to take it because they don't have any other options left.

They could be homeless people trying to afford the deposit on an apartment, or single dads trying to pay for field trips for their kids, or ex-cons locked out of conventional employment trying desperately to earn an honest living, or college students trying to buy one used textbook, or even uneducated twenty-somethings trying to build work history so they can stop working for tips.

All of those desperate people, the people who have no choice but to tolerate the wage that you have too much self-respect to accept--they deserve nice things too. Their boss is a greedy, insufferable bastard who is willing to pay them the minimum that he is legally required to. If he could pay his employees less, he would do it in a heartbeat. By refusing to tip, you are climbing in to the same boat he's in, no matter what ideology you shout as you clamber over the gunwales.

this is where local and regional policy can come in to help coordinate transitioning to a more helpful model of compensating employees.

The answer to your criticism is in the very next sentence of the paragraph that you object to.

spujb@lemmy.cafe typed up the perfect response to this in another thread, let me copypasta their comment for you:

you are proposing that if we all stop tipping, companies will be motivated to pay their workers; you are correct, this is what would happen if we all stopped tipping at the same time.

this process is known as collective action. it is incredibly important to remember that collective action only works when it actually happens. in other words, your individual action of not tipping your waiter is ONLY beneficial to your waiter if you can make sure one else tips either.

do you have this power? (i think you don’t; if you do i beg of you to exercise it lol.)

now consider who actually holds the power here. at any point, your restaurant’s owner could institute a no-tip policy, thereby ensuring that no one has to tip, ever. several restaurants already have done this, and it works. now, you might (correctly) note that this may gives an unfair advantage to other competing restaurants who do not implement no-tip policy. this is where local and regional policy can come in to help coordinate transitioning to a more helpful model of compensating employees.

so there’s kind of this imbalance, where yeah technically it’s possible for us as eaters of food to “fix” the tipping problem, but its way way easier for the people in charge (whether that’s government or owners) to fix it, because they have the power of coordination on their side.

tldr, tip your waiters and advocate for anti-tipping policies if you want to maximize long term benefits for everyone.

Whether you respect them or not, those jobs still must exist until they are automated away. Casual dining and fine dining restaurants can't operate without servers--if that was possible, The Invisible Hand Of The Free Market would have eliminated that position centuries ago.

Socialist theory is great, but material conditions don't care about our ideologies :) I use Marxism and socialism to help myself understand why I feel so alienated and to help fight those feelings, but I still understand that every worker in America lives as an exploited laborer under capitalism. I'm not wealthy or politically powerful or willing to use violence to enforce my views, so my praxis must be aimed at helping the little people until we have enough of a leftist coalition to take on the bigger issues.

Essentially, I'm not big enough to change the world for the better all on my own, but I can change the parts of it that I can reach out and touch with my hands, so why shouldn't I?

Please don't put words in my mouth. When did I ever say 50%? Someone else botched their math and got to that number, and I even took the time to explain why their math was wrong. I have only told others to "tip generously", to always include a tip in their budget while dining out, and in your specific case to tip more than 15%. Even in the offhand example I gave that you think is so insane and stupid, it only comes out to a 33% tip. The people who do the lion's share of the actual labor deserve the lion's share of the profits, and there's nothing insane or stupid about that.

Sounds like that server deserves a generous tip, I hope you take good care of them :)

I guess I don't understand you because I don't understand how your point is relevant. I didn't forget tax because tax isn't relevant to the original image. It only brings up a 25% tip on a total of $70, and "tipping up" to a total sum is never discussed.

On the other hand, my proposed solution involves "tipping up" to a sum, which means tax must be considered if you're going to take the time to calculate the exact tip percentage.

And also, "an excuse"? I'm sorry to ask so bluntly, but that word choice makes me wonder: do you view this conversation as a competition?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying

It's not a ridiculous amount to tip, but explaining why it's reasonable requires an understanding of what commodity fetishism is. Are you already familiar with the term? If not, would you be willing to read a description of what it is if I typed one up for you?

Maybe it used to be decades ago when we first formed our opinions about this stuff, but times have changed since then. Rent has done nothing but go up, while the federal minimum wage has been $7.25/hour since 2009 and the federal tipped minimum wage has been $2.13/hour since 1991. That 15% you gave in 2010 was used for cigarettes and drinks after work, maybe coffee the next morning, maybe putting a little bit into savings or paying for college. Today, that 15% is used for rent. Rent and gas. Rent and gas and maybe childcare. Tipping more than 15% is our way to actually tell someone that they deserve more than just the necessities--and I don't mean telling them with words or with comments on Lemmy, I mean telling them with action.

I think you're looking for the difference between fine dining and nouvelle cuisine / haute cuisine. Think of it like the difference between a nice steakhouse where the server essentially takes your order and gives you a plate, and one of those Instagram dinners where they serve your dessert in hollow chocolate balls and serving is a more involved and delicate process because of the nature of the food you're serving

A $50 meal has sales tax, as well. Tipping up to $70 means the server gets $15-16-- which is a 33% tip.

I make $1 above minimum wage in Los Angeles, so I'm wealthy in a global sense but poor in a local sense. I just live a frugal life with few expenses or vices beyond gaming and smoking, and that's what enables me to tip generously and give to mutual aid groups. I probably eat out less often than the average American, and I don't own a car, but I'm OK with losing those things. I am able and willing to make those sacrifices, so I do so. If you're not able or not willing to make those sacrifices, that's your choice, but don't take the consequences of your choice out on the people who are on the bottom rung of society. That's just gross.

Right!? If you're lucky enough to be financially secure right now, tipping can even be seen as a form of mutual aid!

Yep! The people directly serving us deserve to get paid more, and while we can't raise their wage, we can at least make sure they're getting paid well while they serve us.

I aim for 25-30% tip when I get standard service and when there aren't any comped apps/drinks/desserts. If the server is amazing or if they're giving us free stuff, I give more. 50% is very rare for me to hit, but I did leave 50% at a family dinner a few weeks ago.

Why did you ask about 50% specifically?

Serving a $200 meal requires a lot of knowledge and physical skill that the server down at Chili's probably doesn't have. The kind of restaurant that sells a $200 meal also has a larger support staff that must be given a percentage of the server's tip

Tipping service workers is one of the very few times in our life when we can say "The people directly serving me deserve to get paid more, and while I can't raise their wage, I can at least make sure they're getting paid well while they serve me" and the fact that people are upset about that and actively refuse to tip is just crazy to me.

Like, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but tipping generously is one of the times when we can come pretty close! Maybe instead of having a $70 meal on the brink of a recession, have a $50 meal and tip up to the $70 that's in your budget?

The article mentions that he owns a rental house next door to the illegal bulkhead available for $1500/night for vacations. He'll leech back this fine in 200 days.