I thought lemmy.ca's justification pretty compelling. They are self-avowedly more interested in trolling, harassing other users, and crapping on other people’s politics. They don’t even make a secret of it.
It’s unfortunate because they do seem really queer and queer-friendly. But they seem to be totally uninterested in doing anything other than dunking HARD on anyone to the right of Lenin. So… passing on seeing that, personally.
If your concern is valid, why did the trans woman weight lifter in the Olympics not easily crush her competition? Where is the source for any of your claims? I linked you my proof; your “common sense” is meaningless.
Trans women are not dominating sports when included and there seems to be no “male genetic advantage.” Indeed, as I’ve demonstrated over and over again, it is unfair not to include trans people in exactly the same way as it is to not include Black people.
Your continued sourceless concern trolling is baseless. I’m going to be leaving this conversation because you seem to have nothing more to add. If you have further concerns, I encourage you to reread what I’ve already stated numerous times.
Are you claiming there is no legitimate scientific provable advantage than trans women have over natural women in sports?
Yes, and I am provably correct.
Literally trans people (including trans women!) are competing in Olympics events now. Because as I've said over and over again, gender tests are not based on natal sex but hormone levels.
You've just been watching too much South Park. No one is trying to do compete in opposite-gendered leagues that is not trans, and as I've been saying from the start this is just a red herring with regards to trans liberation.
The science is indeed settled. Asserting once again it's not or that trans/nb people are mentally ill is both scientifically inaccurate and morally wrong. Unless, of course, you have literally any source claiming otherwise?
I mean, people thought Black people had biological differences that would prevent them from competing on an equal footing too. There was literally science about it, in the same way you claim there’s science about trans people. And indeed Black people do dominate certain sports right now. If you want sports to be perfectly fair how can you reconcile that?
Because you’ve a priori agreed Black people competing is worth any amount of “unfairness” that results. The same will be true of trans people in the future.
The rest of your post is honestly just pearl clutching about sports stuff that neither I nor anyone else truly cares about. Sports will get over trans inclusion; trans people are already being included, even in the Olympics, so the process is happening. And no cis athletes have been dispossessed yet. So… continue being unhappy about it if you like, the world is moving on and so am I.
So you are for getting rid of women’s sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
As I said, below the ultra-professional level, yes. Inside the ultra-professional level, gender tests are already not used to differentiate people into competition categories so they've already solved this problem. Read what I said in my previous post.
even if some races had an advantage, that’s legal in an open to everyone category
The point is it didn't used to be. This was because people had research at the time showing that Black people had "higher muscle density" and other nonsense pseudoscience that they used to bar them from the "open to everyone categories." Which, at the time, were not open to everyone, but only white people.
Since you are just not understanding this: the same arguments used to prevent Black people from competing (they would dominate certain sports, their inclusion would make white people feel bad, their existence is basically the same as taking performance enhancing substances) are literally the same ones used to prevent trans people from competing. We decided those problems didn't matter, and now, yes, Black people do win in certain sporting fields more. But everyone's decided that's okay.
Literally the same thing will happen with trans people. I know you have this weirdly deep-seated need to believe in the fairness of sports, but fairness is a construction we apply to sports, not something inherent in them naturally. If we include trans people as much as possible, it will still feel fair, even if trans people (gasp) even sometimes win.
In today’s world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I can’t choose to be black as a white person.
Gender is not "more a state of mind than anything else," any more than sex (or race) is. Trans people are their actual genders, they aren't pretending to be a man or woman for the day, any more than a Black person is pretending to be a white person or vice versa.
Frankly, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, the entire sports argument is stupid though. The rights of an entire minority (yes, their rights) shouldn't hinge on whether or not they can compete in sporting events, and every time trans liberation is brought up people whine "but what about fairness in sports?"
You should find other stuff to care about, because the amount of trans athletes is vanishingly small and the amount of ink spilled on debating their inclusion with sports totally out-of-proportion to the "problem" itself.
I’m fine sorting people by weight classes or hormone levels. But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasn’t been for years. The Olympics, for example, tests your hormone levels and not what your natal sex was or what your genitals look like.
But ultimately I just don’t think sports matters more than peoples’ rights. So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, I’m fine with that.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
I know this, I just don’t think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
The secret is: we don’t need them and never have. Stop thinking about them and continue moving forward.
Unreachable people have always existed politically. Somehow the conversation these days has become “what about the problems of fascists? How do we get them on-board and deradicalize them?” But we can’t and never will.
We’ll just continue without them as they fade into the marginalia of history.
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
Oh no… it does say exactly that and the science is indeed settled. There’s no “artificial distinction;” science says gender and sex are indeed different. Unless of course you can link a reputable scientific organization that disagrees with that overwhelming consensus?
We don’t know what causes most cancers either. That doesn’t mean they can’t be studied scientifically.
This is totally nonsense. No one is "indoctrinating" children... except those who claim that children can't be trans. I would encourage you to swallow your pride and your preconceived notions and actually talk to trans people, many of whom report knowing exactly who they were at the first age they were aware of gender.
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit. If you can't deal with LGBT people and our opinions, you're the one that should get out. We frankly don't need you.
Those aren't the kinds of questions the OP was talking about; their dogwhistle about "trans/gender ideology isn't scientific fact" shows that they are indeed the kind of anti-trans person who is "just asking questions" to harass trans people.
If you have legitimate questions there are many excellent resources on the Internet and even in Lemmy itself where LGBTQ people will be happy to chat with you, if you approach them in a respectful manner :)
I think maybe you should ask why people have no patience for just asking the Jewish question, or wondering why we don’t talk about how great it was for Black people to be slaves. Even if you are asking questions in good faith, the questions themselves can have flawed premises.
Generally public forums are not a great place to just ask questions, especially about sensitive subjects. Asking the people in question in their own forums in a respectful way will get you much further if you truly have questions that you are seeking the answers to.
The n-word is not a slur “in and of itself” either; people can use it in non-pejorative situations… just as pronouns. The problem is the words being used to rob people of their dignity by invoking their minority status against them.
So yes, in that context, pronouns can be slurs against trans people.
No one is railing against “unintentional misgendering,” which happens to everyone. Though if you aren’t sure, non-gendered pronouns are a perfectly suitable alternative.
The current gender/trans ideology isn’t just scientific fact that has to be followed and believed.
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about "gender/trans ideology."
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond "well what about Black people in sports? What about white athletes' feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?" The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. What's so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Tesla is not just selling cars; it’s also selling a lifestyle brand about green energy and pro-environment technology. That brand is being damaged by Elon, which its owners accurately perceive and don’t like. So… here we are.
I defederated my instance.
I thought lemmy.ca's justification pretty compelling. They are self-avowedly more interested in trolling, harassing other users, and crapping on other people’s politics. They don’t even make a secret of it.
It’s unfortunate because they do seem really queer and queer-friendly. But they seem to be totally uninterested in doing anything other than dunking HARD on anyone to the right of Lenin. So… passing on seeing that, personally.