The_Terrible_Humbaba @ The_Terrible_Humbaba @slrpnk.net

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2 yr. ago

All that is more reason to try to gain military independence from the USA, not really a good justification to let them hang out in our territory while threatening our allies.

And no matter how mighty their military might be, having military presence in our territory is still a massive advantage. I mean, look how Vietnam and Afghanistan went for them despite their might; they are not an unstoppable force. Why make it easier for them in the ever increasing chance of a war?

China is a possibility because (AFAIK) they don't have any territorial ambitions in Europe, but Russia is definitely off the table. I don't think any significant number of Europeans would be OK allying with Russia. In fact, I think it's more likely that if a war breaks out that Russia and the USA will be on the same side.

At this point, wouldn't it be safer for NATO to be working to kick the USA out? There are plenty (I don't know exact numbers) of military bases in Europe that contain US soldiers. Not only does that seem like an insane security risk at this point, but it delays any help coming the way of Canada and Greenland if the US invades.

I realize some people might be scared of escalation, but Trump is already escalating and I don't think shoving our head in the sand and hope he is bluffing is a smart move.

I don't know much about the history of anti-Semitism in Europe (so anyone feel free to correct me or add more info), but what I've been thinking is that the cause/origin of anti-Semitism is no different from the anti-immigrant panic from today. They both come down to people from a "foreign" or at least different culture coming into a society and getting jobs or opening business. It just so happens that now those foreign people are more diverse, whereas before (centuries ago in Europe) they were mostly Jewish.

This tells me we have learned nothing from our past except for the most surface level details. We learned that anti-Semitism is bad and beat people over the head with it, but we never properly addressed the roots of it, and so now the same thing is repeating but for different groups of people. It's the same sort of thing as when it is said that "people nowadays are more open minded", when the reality is simply that they were taught to be okay (or not) with certain things; but the bigoted though process has not really gone away.

Ancient Athens is often considered the birthplace of democracy, and it's where we get the word from in English. In Ancient Athens, and if my memory serves correct, only those who owned land were allowed to vote, and only male citizens were allowed to own land. The definition of "democracy" is quite more elastic than people tend to think.

Don't really know where I'm going with this, I think I'm just being a pedant.

Maybe I’ll be that crazy guy that makes his own newsletter and hands it out at work.

“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

1. And plenty more were sent by Dems over the years.
2. I've already linked to these in this thread, but it's depressing that anyone is making that argument anyway:

July 2023

Also, wiki page on the occupation of the West Bank

3. As I said in another comment: two people stomp on you; one calls you a slur, the other says they want the violence to end, but neither stops stomping on you. What does it matter what they say?

And you have a very bad impression. As I have mentioned several times:

I'm not American (therefore I can't "sit out the election"); I have made it clear several times that Trump is much worse than Kamala in everyway except Palestine; I never (and I encourage you to go through my Lemmy history if you don't believe me) never told anyone to not vote for Kamala - in fact I once even said she might be the most left leaning American president in a long time; and I have also argued with a lot of Trumpists online.

So, to put it mildly, your impression of me is off.

At what point will you accept that Trump is really worse than Kamala would have been?

For Palestine specifically? I'm not sure he can be. Would the Nazis have been better if instead of putting people in concentration camps they just shot them in the streets, bombed them, and starved them? If you believe so, then you could make an argument that concentration camps would be the threshold; but personally I'm not convinced there is much of a difference.

But I think that you have shown that you care much more about being right than you do about being understood,

Why do people always love to project so much 🙄

I made it explicitly clear I thought Trump was worse several times. I could not have been more clear if I had made a drawing. And I know that you realized that, because at one point your tone completely changed, and you got a lot less condescending and confrontational than you had been before. But you still can't just say "my bad, sorry, I just had a knee-jerk reaction when you criticized the Dems".

Well, I got lambasted for not being American and having an opinion on the topic, and the person who did it got quite highly upvoted. What conclusion would you draw? Plus I also recognize your username and (while I'm not 100% sure) I'm pretty confident you are American too. And to my knowledge Americans made up the bulk of Lemmy. Seems like a safe assumption to make 🤷‍♂️

Not really it hasn’t been in the spotlight until Oct7th. That’s when real change can happen.

Not knowing about it/not caring is not an excuse. 1978 Oscars

Two people stomping at you, one pulls out a knife and says ‘lets get this vermin and his family too’. There is a clear difference.

That change in the analogy does not work because they were already going after all Palestinians, my dude. So who is the family is this analogy?

Put it this way. (...) Which is worse?

Clearly you and I just disagree on a fundamental level. I don't care what noises someone makes with their mouth while committing heinous acts, and I do not see a moral difference between committing a genocide and arming the people that you know are committing a genocide. Would you also make excuses for the people who knowingly worked with Nazis and made weapons for them?

EDIT: Initially linked the wrong video, then messed up fixing it. It's fixed now.

I hear what you're trying to say, but honestly no. Not when I've been hearing that American literacy has been going down and most college kids nowadays can't even read a whole book; and not when I mention several times that Trump is worse for Americans - and I even made an explicit mention of Trump censoring scientists, which is a case where he banned words such as "LGBTQ+" from scientific papers - and then someone replied lecturing me about how much worse Trump would be for Trans people and Americans. Like, yeah, no shit, I said that.

I think people just saw I disagreed with whatever stance they had and got angry, got even angrier when they saw how much of an ass I was being (in my defence, I wasn't an ass first, and I was sick of reading the same fucking comment under every Palestine thread) and just skimmed most of what I said and proceed to try to argue with me without even trying to understand what I said.

Which frankly makes these conversations exhausting for me, because I'm actually trying to read what people are saying and replying, but most replies I get seem to not put any effort in turn.

Did you read any of what you linked?

I've now read the entirety of the first 2 links, and have not seen a single mention of how Trump would be better for Palestine. If I'm wrong then please provide the quotes where they said Trump would be better.

All that is being said is that people feel disfranchised by the Dems and Kamala. Please actually read what's there and stop seeing what you want to see. In fact the second link straight says:

I’m still voting for Harris, on the basis that change from public pressure is far more unlikely under Trump.

And they literally say it's illogical to vote for Trump:

Despite Trump’s horrendous track record, he has gained in their support solely because of how Harris has campaigned. It’s not logical, but it’s hard to be when directly affected by the actions of the current administration and no prospect for change.

On the third I just did CTRL+F for "trump", and there was nothing about him in regard to Palestine. I didn't even bother with the 4th.

It would make (some level of) sense in posts about Elon taking over the government and immigrants being sent to Guantanamo Bay, but here?

Go make these comments in a post about Trump censoring scientists or something.

That's just in my original comment on this thread. I think people didn't understand I don't like Trump and think he's worse it's because they didn't want to, and they did not try.

I refuse to engage with someone who uses the actual plight of the Palestinians as a gotcha against Americans

You can't be fucking serious right now.

This entire thread exists because of asshats like you trying to gotcha other Americans who didn't vote for Kamala. And it's not the first one like that, just the first that caused me to blow my top.

while not even participating in the political systems here.

Focus on your own country, because unless you’re from South Africa, you probably have a non-zero number of politicians who support Israel as well. This is not a fucking spectator sport.

As I said before, what happens in America affects me to, so I'm gonna keep doing it and you can fuck off. If you actually disagree and believe in what you are saying, then I expect never to hear comment on Israel, Ukraine, or Russia ever again, since you do not participate in those political systems.

you’re still trying to justify why people shouldn’t have voted for Harris

Oh, that's rich, please do tell where I justified people not voting for Kamala. I have said several times in this thread alone that Trump is worse for Americans than Kamala would have been. I'll also add now that it's worse for Europe and Ukraine as well, something I've also said in the past. If you go look through my Lemmy history - go ahead, I dare you to prove I'm lying - I never once told people not to vote for Kamala. You should be ashamed either to lie so boldly, or that a foreigner who speaks English as a second language has a better understanding of it than you.

Not to mention, America isn't isolated. What happens in America affects me too, for better or worse, so I have just as much a right to voice my opinion on American events and politics. If you disagree with that, then I expect you to remain quiet in regard to all other world events. Do you do that?

The news cycle were able to report on everything going on in Gaza

Multiple journalists were killed in Gaza with no consequences. And my news sources still report on Gaza anyway, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. If you're only looking at what is being posted on social media then perhaps you are correct, but I'd argue that is a problem in and of itself.

So many people were willing to donate to Gofundme’s for the people in Gaza to help them cross the border to Jordan/Egypt, or have enough money to at least buy food/shelter/medical treatment and survive until the ceasefire.

This is hands down the best response I've received on this issue, I will acknowledge that, however you talk as if Americans weren't already struggling before, and as if the rest of the world can't still donate and help.

The fact that your idealogical purity stance FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY

Are you Israeli? Are you Palestinian? If not, then why are you not following your own advice? I point back to my second paragraph, in regard to this.

So yeah, Kamala and DonElon…totally the same fucking thing, right?

In regard to Palestine and Israel? Pretty much. Everything else? Obviously not, which is what I've repeated about 200 times fold.

Because it means we haven’t been completely been written off yet, public pressure could improve things.

Public pressure has been around for decades, and the democrats were still supplying them with weapons.

So you’d want the person who controls your fate to at least pretend to have empathy, not the maniac who used ‘Palestinian’ as a slur.

Two people stomp on you. One says "I want the violence to stop", the other calls you a slur. They are both still stomping on you. There is no real difference to the person being stomped.

There was still a Palestine. Now there won’t be. It’s really not that complex. There is a clear difference.

Go look at maps of Palestine over the decades, please. Palestine was already being erased. This is like if we clean up the entire room together but then I let you put the broom away, and now you claim you were the one to clean the entire room. Just because Reps are the ones finishing the job does not mean the Dems were better - we know they were not because we just saw them actively supporting the genocide.

And you keep giving me nothing concrete. It doesn't matter what they say if what they do is the same. Gaza was already being stripped of Palestinians. You still have not made it clear how this is actually worse for Palestinians.

Ok, so your entire comment is: "maybe the Dems would change their minds", did I get that right? I'm sorry to say, that not worth shit. And if you want to talk about history, here and here you go. America (Dems) have been supporting Israel that whole time.

AMERICAN MILITARY TO TAKE GAZA, you are actually out of your mind

If you're Palestinian, what difference does it make if the guns shooting at you, and the boots stepping on your corpse, are carried by the Israeli military or the American military? The use of the American military is only worse for the Americans, for the Palestinians it's more of the same.

1. I agree, which should be easy to understand if you've actually been reading my comments instead of having a knee-jerk reaction.
2. Not American, so thankfully I don't have to (for now). And I did argue with a lot of Trumpists online before the election, but you can only do so much when the other party insists on being a shit stain.

I'm one of the "genocide is genocide" people. And you still haven't said how it's actually worse, though. More vague BS avoiding the question.