TheDankHold @ TheDankHold @kbin.social

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2 yr. ago

Cutting context does allow one to make easy value judgements and frame them to support their preexisting position, that’s true.

It’s a different level, yet part of the same story. And the only way this is actually a different level is by only looking at Israeli casualties (another way restricting context can twist one’s understanding). Palestinians have been killed by Israeli military at a much higher rate for decades.

18 Palestinian journalists have been killed since 2001, all wearing identifying press gear. Russia did this as well in Ukraine and got lambasted for it yet I rarely hear about how Israel killed journalists like Shireen Abu Akleh. Because people love to cut context like this out of their worldview.

And I think restricting context and acting like anything started recently is an inaccurate way to frame what’s going on. This conflict has been going on far longer than a week. Wars don’t just pop up out of nowhere, they are based on context from before the war.

If Palestine had the international funds and military equipment of Israel they would be able to similarly protect their civilians. You’re just glossing right past the fact that one has been intentionally impoverished. Hard to afford an iron dome when your enemy won’t even let your people get adequate food and water.

Also the blood is on more than just the trigger pullers. Surely you wouldn’t say that organizers that didn’t directly participate don’t have blood on their hands. Of course they do, they enabled the attack.

Once you’ve established that our world is more than just a string of isolated incidents it’s easy to see how the Israeli military partially caused this much like how the American government brought about conditions that lead to 9/11. Your aggressive denial is just you getting trapped in emotional thinking.

People like you are why Americans invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. All about killing terrorists but never that interested in the geopolitical context that bred those terrorists. Thus a never ending story of dead innocents while military contractors take in billions.

I mistook you for the original commenter, I apologize.

With that out of the way. You’re right that people who murder innocents don’t deserve support, which is why I condemn Hamas and the Israeli government. Good attempt at conflating my criticism with Israel as a whole but that’s manipulative framing. The Israeli government has taken plenty of actions that directly prop up Hamas and even share responsibility for its initial rise.

As an American, the Israeli government caused this in a similar way that the American government caused 9/11. Much like Israel and Hamas, American government invested in Al Qaeda in the 80s to accomplish a selfish geopolitical goal and it ended up with a massive terrorist attack on their home soil.

It’s awful and reprehensible that innocent people are being killed, no caveat. I’m just not so easily blinded by shock and emotion that I can’t identify the underlying causes that drive this inhumane clusterfuck forward.

I’m willing to keep talking if you’re willing to not assume the worst of my position instead of seeking clarification. What Hamas did was disgusting.

So if the Israeli military hadn’t funneled resources to Hamas in the 80s and 90s it’d be pretty different, good point. Maybe the moderate coalition would’ve been comparatively powerful enough to gain leadership instead of literal terrorists.

Why is it okay that Israel has taken so much control of the region that Gaza can’t even control its own resources? This isn’t some new development. Why are you talking like Palestine is just Hamas and not also thousands of women and children that didn’t choose to be in this open air prison?

It’s amazing how easy it is to get average people to disregard their own humanity and blithely condemn thousands to cruel brutal deaths because of the actions of a group that was literally funded by the military they’re resisting when they first got started.

Don’t give me that psycho shit, the Israeli government has been perpetuating this shit show for decades. The blood of these concert goers is on their malicious actions just like they’re responsible for the deaths of journalists like Shireen Abu Akleh and for the conditions Palestinians live within.

Much like in Israel, the average citizen doesn’t get much choice and instead gets to bear the brunt of the other sides rage. That’s not something to be justified.

I’m sure there are people with gross opinions like that but it serves conversation better to not make blanket statements about people who disagree with you.

You know you can look this up so you don’t come across as an ignorant partisan right?

Her name was Shireen Abu Akleh

From the article:

“Several independent investigations carried out by various bodies and organisations, including the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, concluded that Abu Akleh was most likely killed by seemingly well-targeted shots fired by Israeli forces, despite her wearing clear identification as a journalist. Internal investigations carried out by the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) found “a high possibility” that Abu Akleh was “accidentally hit” by IDF gunfire. However, to date, Israeli authorities have not opened a criminal investigation into her death or held anyone accountable.”

So are you willing to amend your previous claim? Or do you just want to cast doubt on anything that shows the Israeli government in a bad light?

Edit: I almost forgot, here’s proof that Israeli military went to the funeral to beat pallbearers and others: https://apnews.com/article/shireen-abu-akleh-journalist-funeral-west-bank-bb71e2ec64dd034066bc6df4a9aa2fb3

And you know what, have some more quotes from the original article:

“The experts also decried the record-high number of killings of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem in recent months in the context of raids by Israeli forces, often targeting refugee camps. In 2022, out of 9000 Israeli operations, 702 targeted refugee camps in the occupied West Bank. In 2023, already more than 100 Palestinians have been killed in the context of such operations, including in Jenin, Nablus and Jericho. Since 2001, at least 18 Palestinian journalists have been reportedly killed by the IDF in the occupied Palestinian territory and no one has been held accountable for those deaths.”

Hamas didn’t exist at the start of the conflict actually. They formed in response to and with funding from Israel in the 80s and 90s.

Starving innocents is bad, yes. Abuse breeds abuse, it’s no wonder the Palestinian reaction considering everything the Israeli government has done to them.

Not to mention the Israeli military is the reason Hamas is where it is, funding it in the 80s and 90s because they’re easier to hate than the moderate coalition.

Did disease not account for the vast majority of death? Even still, I never discounted the brutal conquest that was engaged in. My point is that Europeans aren’t special for brutal conquests. Imperial Japan is a prime example this.

You’re also treating a bunch of competing individuals as a hive mind with a coherent plan. I find that “grand scheming entity” kind of narrative to be just as naive as the people buying into racist narratives. It doesn’t make sense when it’s Jewish people and they’re a smaller demographic than “Western European”.

They literally shot a journalist in the head and then sent military thugs to rough up people at the funeral. Your perspective is severely lacking context on one side.

Exactly, it’s why the Israeli military funded them through the 80s and 90s. If the moderates won then they wouldn’t give them excuses to glass hospitals and gun down children.

No this is what results when that doesn’t happen and also what happens when you decide to fund extremists in the 80s and 90s so you can keep the moderate coalition out of power to keep this clusterfuck going.

Because you’re lumping in the unavoidable disease transfer of first contact with intentional conquest and violence. Take away that, which was going to happen whenever any Afro-Eurasian community first interacted with people from the americas, and you get a very comparable situation to many things throughout history.

And that’s how Palestinians feel about the decades of reprisals Israel has inflicted upon them because of Hamas.

It doesn’t give them the right to bomb hospitals and apartment buildings. It doesn’t give them the right to gun down journalists and children. It doesn’t give them the right to evict Palestinians from their homes to send in colonists for replacement. It doesn’t give them the right to turn what should be a separate country like Gaza into a literal open air prison where they can cut their power and water and they need to have Israel approve an exit pass to leave their homes and go anywhere else in the world.

Neither average citizen wants this bullshit to happen. But it’s not up to them, it’s up to a terrorist organization and a government that literally funded Hamas in the 80s and 90s so that the moderate coalition didn’t win. The one going into mosques to rough up and arrest random practitioners. I feel for every citizen in both territories, just know that war mongers in your government have contributed massively to these tragedies.

The extremists in your government had a large hand in creating the group that’s now slaughtering innocents and giving them an excuse to glass the people they look down on.

The people at the top. The religion in question is patriarchal but the mechanism it works on doesn’t require a certain gender identity to work.

Ok so no government has ever governed through consent in that respect so I’m not sure why that’s an important issue to bring up. No one consents to be ruled by a government, you’re just born into it in most cases and in others the one you initially didn’t consent to got replaced by yet another that wasn’t consented to.

You really are glossing over the fact that referring to a 2000 year empire as blanket conservative is ignorant and ahistorical. They were multicultural and, with glaring exceptions, tolerated alternative religions far more than most geopolitical entities through history. It’s a vast history with varying governments, both with progressive ideas for the time and regressive backslides.

Watering it down to boilerplate 21st century political terminology shows a lack of intellectual rigor in understanding this issue so I don’t think this conversation needs to continue. I wish you well.

My point is that they were also the in group. It’s very much a flawed perspective, referring to the whole empire as conservative makes it clear.

I mean given that there were Roman emperors that hailed from almost every territory in the empire I don’t think your understanding of Romans is very accurate.

After 212AD if you were a free man and lived in the empire then you were a Roman citizen. There was also a surprising degree of religious freedom in the empire as well.

Using modern political group labels for antiquity is silly.