PotatoesFall @ PotatoesFall @discuss.tchncs.de

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998

Joined

2 yr. ago

Hong Kong is a Chinese city that was colonized by the British and is being reintegrated, as yiu would expect from a sovereign country. You claimed elsewhere that you are against Western hegemony, but this is a crystal clear example of anticolonial action and you’re siding with the colonists that write breathless propaganda about how unfair it is that China is governing a Chinese city.

Okay so violently beating down protesters is okay because it's in the name of anticolonialism? This line of reasoning goes exactly the same as US imperialism. It's always some harmful ideology that is enslaving the poor people of some place and they must be freed by being forced to join the empire.

I don't get where you're trying to take this conversation. You don't have to prove to me that some things about China are great. In this comment alone you admitted three times that China isn't perfect. Which means, China should be criticized. Like any other nation state. And I am saying, there are shills who run around and won't let anybody criticize China because for some reason they got emotionally attached to a nation state. Everybody who says they don't want to deepthroat Mao's shlong for breakfast gets called a liberal. Any and all words uttered by a human that has even looked at the US on a map is liberal slop, and everything coming from the Russian state department is gospel. And I call those people tankies. That's all I'm saying.

Taiwan and Hong Kong ARE China

Imperialism much?

China is improving along those lines, while the US is rapidly regressing

That's fair, but it's once again an argument based entirely on comparing China to the US. The US being bad doesn't make China good. To get back to my original argument, I'm just saying that the word 'tankie' refers to China or Russia simps. There is no nation in this world worth simping for.

Liberalism is fundamentally an ideology of private property ownership and that’s why it always inevitably devolved into fascism in times of crisis.

What does this have to with anarchism, which rejects private property?

Anarchists place their individual freedom above collective good, and thus align with liberal capitalists in action.

Anarchists believe that it is neither a supreme ruler nor the majority that decide what collective good is. I reject your idea that the collective good is something we have to decide on collectively and then force upon those who disagree. Anarchists have been brutally repressed in Western countries, they in no way align with liberal capitalists in action.

Would Al Jazeera suffice? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/8/10/one-million-muslim-uighurs-held-in-secret-china-camps-un-panel

Define liberal please because I don't like being called one.

In the same way that some people will shill for billionaires or for some billionaire-owned company, aka a corporate shill. People who fail to see that (capitalist) companies are just a way to extract profit. In the same vein, some people fail to see that nation states are just instruments of power. Some are better than others in different ways of course, but I get real itchy when people jump to defend a nation at the first smidgeon of criticism. I hate nationalism.

I don't see what the approval rates of these two countries have to do with anything here. In terms of the economy and infrastructure, China is indeed moving in the right direction. That doesn't mean I think China is a force of good in the world. It's a nation state and should be subject to criticism. And all I'm saying is that there are people who will religiously dogpile you if you try to do that, and I call those people tankies.

Hong Kong has experienced violent oppression from China when there were protests. Taiwan wants to be independent but is not recognized as such by China. While Western media has certainly exaggerated claims, there are credible reports of uyghurs being repressed. I'm not saying this behavior is worse than Western imperialist behavior. I'm saying these are imperialist behaviors, and just like the US, the Chinese government tries to cover them up or pretend they aren't happening, or comes up with some reason for it.

What I'm saying is that there are some people who buy into that, and will shut down any criticism of it.

Okay we might have a different definition of liberal. (ironically under a post where I'm arguing about the definition of tankie lol). I'm talking about people who think capitalism can work or can be made to work. People who conflate capitalism and the fake meritocracy sold by the American dream with actual freedom.

If liberal just means somebody who believes that freedom is important, then yeah I'm a liberal. But maybe you have a different definition? (genuinely asking, not trying to be standoffish)

You have a misconception about anarchism being about individualism though. Anarchists focus on community and communes. Most anarchist theory I've consumed laments the individualism that capitalism tries to sell because it destroys culture and community.

it is Marxism that has brought great improvements to China’s conditions, and these improvements are continuing at a rapid pace, and thus has widespread support.

I can face that reality I think.

All fair points, but what about Taiwan and Hong Kong? What about the treatment of minorities?

New theory just dropped, everyone: The more people a government represents, the more evil that government is.

lmao. I unironically believe this though. The more you concentrate power, the harder it is to keep bad actors from abusing said power.

Funny how 95% of the Chinese population approves of and rates favorably this terrible “ruling over” they are being subjected to.

Most Americans approve of capitalism. Does that make it good too?

yep <3

Unfortunately I've hat the displeasure of "conversing" with a few people who are unable to handle even that level of nuance

If China is so great then why does it feel the need to dictate over Hong Kong and Taiwan? Does China have gay marriage? Trans rights perhaps?

I'm not saying China is as bad as the West claims it is. I'm just saying it's not something to get wild about. It's a nation state (a far too big one at that), which are by definition tools of oppression.

hehe Yogthos I was actually thinking of you when I mentioned China stans :P no offense

I really don't like being called a liberal though :( what makes me come across like a liberal? Is it my anarchism? My hatred of capitalism, colonialism and western hegemony?

I'm actually really happy that you mentioned Shock Doctrine because last time I was arguing with a tankie they called Naomi Klein a US state sanctioned liberal :D

I already replied on another comment about the support

90% support makes the whole thing more suspicious to me than anything.

I'm sure a lot of the policy that the CCP has put forward are great, especially if compared to the US counterparts, but that doesn't justify violence and oppression.

Stop with the strawmen. When did I say I agree with US propaganda? When did I say that I consider myself on the same side as the US?

No, and that's a good point actually. Although I think the state of political opposition both in Russia and China speaks volumes.

Funny, I was just telling @Cowbee about how the tankies I see on here are insufferable & impossible to converse with.

But I'll bite. First of all, I don't appreciate the strawmen. I'm not saying that there is a lot of tankies, nor that they are here now suddenly. I'm not denying that US/Western propaganda doesn't exist, nor that it's dangerous and pervasive.

I'm just saying that I, myself, in my own experience, have seen people shilling for China or even Russia, acting like it's a fucking utopia. Russia an oligarchy, just with a different structure than most Western countries. China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil. No amount of America Bad makes China or Russia good.

In terms of propaganda sources, for example just take a look at Russia Today.

Your second and third sentence are true. I have definitely seen plenty of shills though.

In my experience I've only seen the word tankie be used by leftists. Libs and conservatives don't even know what a tankie is.

The people I'm describing as tankies are people I've interacted with myself. I'm sure they don't exist in huge numbers, but they are more concentrated on .ml, they are loud, and they are impossible to converse with. I still like it here because most people here, like yourself, are smart and offering interesting perspectives I haven't explored before.

I agree that the idea of only Eastern propaganda being dangerous and pervasive is wrong. Western propaganda is everywhere too and also dangerous.

One thing that is different is the lack of government-critical sources available from China, also Russia. Freedom of Speech in the West is wobbly, but in China and especially Russia it is even worse (from everything I've read).

This is a lovely segue into our China sidequest, and while I agree on the definition, I have doubts on how public the public sector really is. The way that national election results look and the way vocal dissidents or political opposition are treated does not give me the idea that the people truly have all the power here.

Capitalism concentrates power in the capitalist class. This class can then subvert democracy, resulting in oligarchy. In a similar way, central planning concentrates power in the central government, which actually makes it even easier to abuse that power. Chinese government is not transparent nor federal enough for me to call it democratic or owned by the people.