PoliticalAgitator @ PoliticalAgitator @lemmy.world

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2 yr. ago

Yeah they're plenty appeased. They see the constant mass shootings in America and say "thank fuck we don't live there". When their laws do fail, they're scrutinized by the public and the press. They demand to know how it happened and what is being done to stop it happening again. They demand accountability for anyone who dropped the ball.

It's measurably more effective than starting a gun worshiping cult and threatening children who survived school shootings.

If we're talking theatre though, remind us again now many tyrants America has overthrown? How is the crime rate going? How are rights going for women and minorities under the most pro-gun candidates?

Most Americans, myself included, don't like giving up personal rights for "security."

Disregarding that "most" is probably incorrect and the long history of pro-gun candidates stripping rights from people, who cares what you "don't like"? The south didn't like giving up slaves. Hungry people don't like rationing. We're under no obligation to politely tolerate immoral, harmful things because you don't like them.

Those are also some extremely dubious use quotation marks around security.

It's inarguable that for most people, gun laws that actually work are vastly safer than selling guns to anyone who can fill out a form. Every single person who has ever been killed by a "responsible gun owner" (or a firearm that a "responsible gun owner" failed to secure) would have had better odds under gun control.

But the pro-gun community doesn't care because "fuck you, I got mine". Their security comes at everyone else's expense -- sometimes even at the expense of their own family.

To draw a parallel that I figure you'll agree with - far-right rhetoric is on the rise and I think we should do something about it.

Way more irrelevant that you realize. You're not actually advocating "we should do something about extremism and mental health" like you think, you're advocating "we should do something about extremism and mental health while continuing to maximise the violence they're able to cause with easily accessible firearms.

Maybe when the start blowing up schools, stabbing kids, and running them over with huge F-150s, the DNC will start saying "Public access to fertilizer, pointy metal, and cars is the issue! No more fertilizer = no more school bombings! It's that simple!"

Oh you mean the things we're already able to do because there isn't a self-absorbed death cult preventing it?

When car and truck attacks started happening, areas with a high number of pedestrians had vehicle blocking installed. The attacks never killed remotely close to as many people as semi-automatic weapons did but waned anyway.

Bomb attacks just aren't happening, despite the pro-gun crowd constantly claiming they will the moment they stop selling guns to people with a history of abuse.

The reality is that building bombs requires far more time, effort and risk for usually underwhelming results. The Boston Marathon bombing killed three people. Sure, Timothy McVeigh still holds the scumbag high score, but where are the copycats? Probably in jail, since buying enough explosives to fill a truck gets you a visit from their feds.

Then of course the token "but knives!", which only works if you don't actually think about it. Terrorists aren't choosing knives, even in the rare cases where a gun isn't an option.

A moderately strong door can stop a knife attack. It's much safer for a coo or armed guard to engage someone with a knife. Stab wounds are more survivable than gunshot wounds. Stabbing multiple people takes far longer and is more physically demanding, especially as they take wounds by being in arms reach.

Can we acknowledge just how low a bar the gun laws set when "someone stabbing as many school children as they can before they're subdued or killed" would be a measurable improvement?

But I'll tell you what: If you give gun control the same 20 years we've politely given your dogshit solution, every time a school is attacked you can come to us and demand solutions.

And I promise we'll do better than blaming video games and gay people, taking millions of dollars of donations from knife manufacturers and staunchly opposing any revisions to the law for the rest of time.

FFS, we have a social problem, not a gun problem.

Then when you're all done fixing those social problems, you can have your guns back.

If you don't like idea, jump in your time machine and fuck off back to the 70s.

As for magazine size, I like to have a higher capacity for more fun at the range.

Many countries that the pro-gun community insists have "banned guns" will let you go to a range, unlicensed, and fire basically anything the range offers.

Meanwhile in America, scoping gun laws to reasonable use is staunchly opposed. We're supposed to accept that semi-automatic weapons with high capacity accessories are going to be sold to domestic terrorists and idiots, so people can "have fun at the range".

Not only is that deeply fucked in the head, it's not even necessary.

I have never met anyone with this permit.

What a strange coincidence, I've never heard of these weapons being used in a mass shooting or gang crime, despite the pro-gun community insisting that regulations don't work.

Good news, full auto and burst fire have been illegal for decades.

The pro-gun community does not support this ban

Bump stocks, which would bounce the trigger back against your finger causing it to fire effectively like a full auto despite being semi, were banned by trump of all people.

The pro-gun community fought this for years, despite claiming they were "just a range toy" even after their role in the deadliest mass shooting America had ever seen.

So let's not pretend the pro-gun community are reasonable people making reasonable concessions.

No problem, we can ban those too.

I didn't mean to imply those were the only problems with their racist bullshit, just that anybody should be able to see the deep flaws in it, even with no additional knowledge, long before they made it part of their abhorrent personality.

Yes, atf form 4473 which coincides with an FBI background check to verify the info

Okay, so we're in agreement that you think filling out a form is hard. Don't worry though, the pro-gun community has got your back and that form isn't needed for private sales.

Well, turns out, that if you're under 18 or have a history of felony animal abuse, you can't pass that! "Threats of death and rape" seems to be more of a "I don't feel like dealing with this" scenario from the cops, fix that, not being able to protect yourself.

We're really starting to find some common ground now with you acknowledging that the current laws and proceedures aren't working.

Unfortunately, you seem confused about whose problem it is again. These are the laws you're defending, conspicuously failing and resulting in the deaths of children.

If you want me to implement laws I support, I'm happy to do that, but you're not going to like them. On the bright side, if they habitually fail and arm terrorists, abusers and criminals, then you can demand I fix the laws.

And I will, because my laws don't rely on people having an acceptable amount of innocent people murdered because of proceedural mistakes or poor coverage.

"The democrats don't support gun rights at all so to buy them you typically buy them from right wingers" then start some left wing gun companies and advertise, I'd love to buy a gun from an employee owned business, problem is one would have to "exist." You should start one.

Can't you offer any solutions except "you should fix this my problems for me". Why am I supposed to work to fix your laws? Why am I supposed to run the gun company you want? Aren't gun owners meant to be all fiercely independent? All I'm seeing here is the learned helplessness of a spoiled child.

Ah so by your logic since I can rent a uhaul and fill it up with fertilizer car bombs are legal, huh? Not even a NICs check!

You will absolutely get a visit from their FBI if you start buying the materials needed to fill a truck with explosives. Thankfully, we don't let dumb motherfuckers write and enforce those laws.

Wrong again cheesedick, private sale to a prohibited purchaser is also illegal.

Don't know if you're being stupid or dishonest but it's only illegal if you know for a fact that they're a prohibited person.

Oh word we're back to victim blaming?

"Back" to the point you never made? They'd have to be the victim for it to be victim blaming.

Remember, I'm not advocating "people should be charged with a crime when their responsibly stored firearms are stolen", I'm advocating that people should be charged with a crime when their negligently stored firearms are accessed by a prohibited person.

A policy that "responsible gun owners" oppose of course. For some reason it's important to them that being responsible is optional and being irresponsible isn't punished.

It's like having a group of people who constantly say "I would never drive if I was drunk and I don't think anybody should" but then fiercely oppose DUI laws, despite reading daily headlines about how another of their members killed 2 people in a crash when they were drunk.

I agree.

Not going to bother engaging on that one. You already said something so self-absorbed and fucked in the head that there's nothing I could say to make you look worse.

In fact, I'm just going to wrap up the comment here and not bother replying again.

I was looking forward to making fun of you for trying to insult my mother by saying you pay old ladies for sex but really, nobody with a mind worth changing is reading this far.

Sorry I offended your delicate eyeballs. Next time I'll make sure to prioritize how my comment looks across a range of devices and frontends, rather than the clarity of the argument itself.

Should I also stop using capital letters? It seems to be what all the formatting police are doing but I'm worried it will make me look like a sock puppet account that I'm using to agree with myself.

Of course, the government isn't forcing you to get healthcare (or they didn't used to anyway, but I disagree with that too.)

They're not forcing you too buy a gun either clown.

You just say whatever melodramatic shit enters your head.

If I was going to complain about readability, I probably wouldn't have opted for all lowercase.

Their "IQ by race" schtick doesn't even hold up to the most basic questioning, let alone actual science.

They want to claim it's okay to abuse and enslave black people because they've got a chart that says they have the lowest average IQ.

But they seem to mysteriously lose all interest in the idea when you suggest removing race from it entirely and just testing individuals directly, shipping anyone below a threshold off to a concentration camp.

Since it was their idea, it seems only fair that we start by testing the nazis and their closest friends and family.

Deep down, they know their ranks would be decimated.

Responsible gun owners sure do seem to have a lot of "whoopsies".

"Whoopsie, I seem to have brandised my weapon at children"

"Whoopsie, I seem to have allowed my gun to be stolen"

"Whoopsie, a family member seems to have comitted suicide with my poorly secured firearm".

"Whoopsie, I seem to have shot a child in the face over a misunderstanding".

It's almost like there are external factors and other differences between these countries that contribute to it, like wealth inequality or lack of social safety nets.

Cool, sounds like you don't need guns then.

Yeah well you don't care if people get stabbed so we're even then lol.

I'm not advocating people carry knives around, nor trying to block laws aimed at reducing knife crime. Are you this easily confused when you're carrying your guns around?

No, they provide a good, and for that they deserve to be compensated for their time and materials if you so choose to support their business.

I'm loving watching you awkwardly try and reconcile "I am a defender of the poor" while also simping for neoliberalism.

You see the people who work for these companies and yes even the owners typically like things like "food" or "housing," (I know, what needy little bitches, huh? Food AND shelter?)

You don't even know who the owners are do you? They're not wanting for food nor shelter.

Just quit while you're behind. You're not advocating that the gun companies divert their funds, as your comment would suggest.

Nope, I'm not advocating that, I'm openly mocking you. Good that you finally noticed.

You're advocating that people, including poor people, pay $50 a month that they didn't need to just to have the right to protect themselves from victimization.

Yep, we've already covered that. Poor people couldn't afford guns and you didn't even pretend to care, let alone do anything about it. Now you don't want to pay a subscription fee for your guns so you're pretending it's because you're a hero to the poor.

Healthcare is a service not a good. Jesus christ you're stupid.

As is liabilty insurance.

Maybe you should stick to the opinions the gun lobby feeds you.

Because "not charging me extra for mandatory insurance" isn't a physical item or even a service.

Oh I understand now. You're fine with paying more than the cost of materials when that extra profit goes towards the services that the gun lobby provides.

Services like "ensuring far-right Republicans have plenty of money for their campaign" and "coordinating anti-vax astroturfing campaigns during a pandemic". You know, the usual pro-gun stuff.

What you will not tolerate is any of that money going to the victims of gun violence.

WeLl ThEn MayBe We ShOuLd MaKe It FrEe.

Yes, they should make medical care free. Unfortunately it sounds like you'd get upset and threaten to kill them if they did because it's not a "physical item" like "record profits for evil people" is.

That didn't take much prodding did it? You've just let slip your contempt for a lower crime rate, fewer murders and no monthly extremist killing as many minorities or children as they can.

I guess all your talk about criminals, rape, self defense and protecting minorities was just bullshit rhetoric after all.

If there's no gun sales in it, you openly don't care.

Translation: "I don't know a damn thing about how to buy a gun in the US and I'm probably british."

Oh no! Does the poor little soldier of the resistance need to fill out a form? Do they have to wait a few days? Maybe the poor little snowflakes have to arrange a private sale to dodge a background check?

But sure, we can play this game. Name a state whose gun laws you fully support and we'll go through them together.

If you're having difficulty parsing the statement it means that you don't have the right to deprive another of their rights

I'm sure that would have been a sick burn if it didn't rely on misunderstanding non-literal language.

Well find me a gun company that ...isn't a gun company?

Are your donations to the Republican party still tax deductable after they've been filtered through a proxy?

Oh shit they made school shootings legal if you have a permit?

Nope, just the best in class tools you need to do one, no matter how many red flags you wave around, all thanks to the pro-gun community.

But don't worry, they make up for it by intervening in almost 3% of mass shooters. That's almost as many as unarmed civilians!

Of course over 80% of those mass shooters are legal gun owners, with most of the remaining 20% being children of "responsible gun owners".

Well, not if they are a prohibited purchaser.

Unless their state doesn't have universal background checks -- a system the pro-gun community opposes. Then they've just got to organise a private sale and complete the transaction without saying "By the way I'm a rapist".

But it's not like it's a barrier anyway. Making guns trivial to purchase also makes it trivial to straw purchase guns too.

Yet we're still haven't covered all the ways the pro-gun community arms murderers and rapists because guess where stolen weapons come from?

That's right, legal gun owners again! The ones with zero obligation to properly secure their firearms, who leave them sitting in gloveboxes and drawers in case they need to murder a minority real quick.

And I'd rather their victims be able to have them too than just get raped and murdered at knifepoint instead.

Oh how kind of you to decide what weapons people should be threatened with while they're raped.

But aren't you forgetting something? Those victims can just carry knives too and everything is fair and just again right? Or does your shit tier logic suddenly not apply when we're not talking about your toys?

"You can run from knife," ahh shaddup you better be fast then with that ableist take, and don't try to pretend you weren't about to type that shit either y'all are too predictable.

You tried so hard to dress it up as "Actually I'm a hero to people with disabilities too" but you just made it obvious that deep down, you know knive crimes have a lower lethality and a higher chance of being interrupted.

But it's not you being raped and murdered, so who cares right? You've already made it clear you think you're doing them a favor by selling their attackers guns.

Due to this, and the wide gap between the high/low end, the veracity of this study has been debated.

You could have just not said anything rather than admitting that gun owners can't be trusted to accurately self-report DGUs.

Well, that takes care of the DGU, what about the deaths?

Oh honey, you're not even comparing the right things. Did you really think it was going to be "DGUs is bigger than gun murders therefore I'm right"?

You're comparing alternative realities -- and you're not even comparing them well. For a start, where's your number for how many offensive gun uses there are?

For every limp dick waving a gun around claiming self defense, there could be 100 abusive partners telling their sweethearts "if you try to leave I'll kill you".

But don't worry, we can compare this reality by seeing how America -- where hundreds of thousands of brave patriots use their cool guns to fend off rapists and murderers -- to the rest of the world.

And oh look, the crime rate is functionally identical, only you're more likely to be killed during a property crime thanks to all the criminals the pro-gun crowd armed.

Oh but those people are probably british right? They don't count. We need to stick to AMERICAN numbers because nobody knows gunning down innocent people like AMERICA does (for some mysterious reason).

But when gun sales go up, crime rates go down right? If guns prevent more crime than they enable, that should be clearly reflected. "Guns sold" number goes up, "number of crimes" goes down.

Nope. No measurable difference at all with some mass shootings sprinkled on top. Just another pro-gun lie in a string of thousands.

I'll twist your twister with the 100,000 people it DID work out great for every year, that's 51,170 more twists! Get twisted on, go twist yourself.

You know people that aren't fucked-in-the-head gun cultists don't consider "I had to threaten or kill another person with a gun" to be "working out great" right?

You genuinely probably don't. I've seen the "get out of murder free" fantasies all over pro-gun forums. What's yours? I'm guessing "saving a woman that's out of your league from a Trump voter".

Your Mama comes at the expense of others, and it isn't even that expensive.

Go mom! 85, still getting hers and making bank from it too!

Did you find her when you were looking for people willing to fuck you for money? Did you start at the great grandmothers or did everyone else turn you down?

Just don't do a mass shooting okay? Sexually frustrated gun owners murdering women has become such a cliche.

Don't worry, it's not a secret. It's called "any other wealthy country with gun control (which is basically all of them)".

Sure, it's not exactly violence free but the chances of your child being mutilated beyond recognition by a former "responsible gun owner" are close to zero.

Even in the poorest communities, "gunshots or fireworks" just isn't a thing. Even for the most despised minority groups, "this confrontation could escalate to murder before anyone could intervene" isn't a thing.

It's way better.

Isn't it funny how when you complain about a cost being too high, it isn't "expecting things to be handed out for free" but if I suggest it, the standards change?

But you want to know some more things that aren't free? Sewing up bullet holes. Cleaning children's blood and brains from their classroom floor. Processing the 4 women who are murdered by their partners in America each day. Locking down a mall because someone who couldn't get their dick sucked bought an AR-15.

Maybe its time for the fucking gun owners to pay.