OccamsTeapot @ OccamsTeapot @lemmy.world

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770

Joined

2 yr. ago

Probably not but I think it's good to make the case and to give people a chance.

But yeah that seems to be it. Israel gets everything "it's the only way, I'm just being realistic" and Hamas surrenders entirely and gets nothing because.... that is "realistic" apparently? This will make Palestinians stop fighting for their freedom, somehow? Bizarre logic.

You ignore everything else so you can pretend you're being "realistic" and everyone with morals is "living in a fantasy land." Ronald fucking Reagan suspended weapons delivery to them so let's not pretend it's so impossible.

Reagan not only supported UNSC Resolution 487, which condemned the attack, but he also criticized the raid publicly and suspended the delivery of advanced F-16 fighter jets to Israel. 

And since you're just ignoring anything inconvenient to you, I'll just leave this question here again...

Again WHY do you think everyone should bend over backwards to do what Israel wants "for peace" but not make any concessions for Hamas? Don't you understand that peace requires both sides to actually agree?

Then we should declare war on Israel is your perspective?

Did you miss this part?

I don't think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.

Sanction. Boycott. Make demands with actual consequences. Then if none of that works, international peacekeeping forces should stop the genocide immediately.

If you truly think the US will ever declare war on Israel, you're insane and this conversation can end here. It's so out of the realm of reality

Yeah that's why I did not say that.

The only way this specific conflict will end is either complete destruction of Hamas, or their complete surrender. Period.

Wrong. Cease fire. Prisoner exchanges. Happened many times before.

Again WHY do you think everyone should bend over backwards to do what Israel wants "for peace" but not make any concessions for Hamas? Don't you understand that peace requires both sides to actually agree?

Are you thinking that Hamas is actually going to lay down their arms? Or that if they were destroyed another terror group wouldn't take their place? Is that realistic?

I don't care what Israel wants. Like I said, Hitler wanted to keep killing Jews - should we have worked with him? Should we have let him continue? You point out that we bombed them into submission but somehow don't support this solution with Israel's unreasonable demands, why?

I don't think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.

It’s pointless to sit here and say “well they should just give Hamas everything they want” because they will not.

First off. Negotiations don't work that way. Both sides must make concessions. Of course we shouldn't give Hamas everything they want.

Second, why do you seem to think it's ok that we give Israel everything they want? Just because they're currently winning thanks to US and generally western weapons and backing?

Well excuse me if I don't think we should all bend over and do what Israel wants. Why should being an obstinate cunt about it mean you get your way? Sanction, threaten, UNSC resolutions, and actually enforce it.

We can’t just force Israel to stop their campaign and release all prisoners.

We could fucking try. Can you imagine making this type of argument about the holocaust? Well you know guys, we all hate the genocide but Hitler really wants to keep killing jews so we have to work with him on that.

It’s far more complicated than just “Israel and Hamas bad, they should be peaceful will each other”

Obviously. This straw man is pointless. But when I talk about dismantling illegal settlements, Palestinian statehood and freedom, you just ignore that? Why? There are many practical steps I have suggested and many others that people with actual expertise could suggest.

Each side wants the complete destruction of the other.

I don't think this is true. Hamas' charter supports a two state solution, for example.

We can’t just say “be peaceful” and walk away and know that they will never attack each other again.

No shit. Did you even read what I wrote?

You can’t have perpetual peace in this ongoing conflict man

You get peace by addressing the issues that created the conflict. Is this not obvious? It's ongoing because of shit like the illegal settlements and the blockade of Gaza. The land was stolen but agreements can be reached to split it, if the sides are willing. Of course they tried with the Oslo Accords and it didn't go so well (eg the illegal settlements yet again). Calling it a perpetual conflict is giving up. We need a peace agreement which is actually enforced.

“Dehamasification” isn’t bombing and killing all of Hamas, so no I don’t think the current situation is being successful. It’s a long term project that will likely take decades, with an international occupation force overseeing it.

But yeah fair enough. So if this is not working we need an immediate ceasefire. And yeah I agree it will take time.

But this specific conflict does not end until Hamas surrenders. Israel will not stop until that end is met. We can argue all day about the morality of that, but it doesn’t matter, that’s the reality of the facts on the ground at this moment

The morality does matter. Israel is not a force of nature. What they are doing is wrong and we need an international coalition to make them stop. "The reality of the facts on the ground" is that innocent people are dying every day and Israel is making that happen. And Hamas kicked off this particular round of fighting so they also get some of the blame.

Edit, missed this part:

Like post-war Germany, this won’t be some overnight fix. It will take immense resources and effort. Is that going to happen?

It should. I don't know how this will end but we can't just allow this to continue. Nobody wants another October 7th and nobody wants another 8 months of livestreamed war crimes in response

Well peace, until Hamas has gathered more strength and attacks Israel again, right?

No, by peace I mean peace. Like the ordinary meaning of the word.

How many months of peace do you think it will be before they’re firing rockets into Israel again?

Maybe if Israel tries not oppressing people? Wild idea I know. Not a defence of their actions, but if you abuse a people for long enough it's not exactly unexpected is it? My previous comment is full of ideas that would make this much less likely to happen. It could be stopped entirely with diplomacy, although without addressing the serious systemic inequalities it would probably flare up again, yeah.

The only solution is the dehamasification of Gaza.

How do you achieve this? Do you think the current conflict is going to plan in this regard?

Oh no no, Israel are monsters whether they accept or not. You can't kill over 10k children and purposefully try to create a famine and get away without that label.

Gaza needs to be "dehamasafied" a la Berlin 1945

If you think the current conflict hasn't created more terrorists than it's killed you are not thinking empathetically. If a nearby state killed your whole family and destroyed your home because some authoritarian regime you never voted for pissed them off and you could do nothing about it, would you really be less likely to want to take up arms against them? Give me a break.

The only solution is peace. The only way to get true peace is to give Palestine a proper state and freedom from occupation. Dismantle illegal settlements. Immediately release "administrative detainees" held without charge (aka hostages). In short, give Palestinians the same respect and rights as everybody else. You cannot bomb this problem out of existence.

I really don't understand this - what would be different if they were? I have no problem with the idea that Juul was irresponsible or whatever in their marketing but it's weird to me that this all seems to be based on generally eyeballing the marketing and being like "yeah this isn't for smokers/This is directed at kids" with basically nothing to back it up.

slightly less harmful.

Over 20 times less harmful

And you're not interested in whether they actually did anything, not even enough to respond to my point. I'm not interested in "simping" for them, but I am interested in whether there is any substance to the accusations. That article provided insinuation, not substance.

I feel like a lot of this is insinuation, like "young-looking" models - rather than marketing with old people? Like literally almost all marketing. Look at this:

that featured young-looking models wearing belly-exposing crop tops, ripped jeans and jean jackets with a bright color scheme.

What exactly is bad about this unless we assume these models were underage? Which they almost certainly weren't

Such as?

Juul was always a scapegoat. They are nothing other vapes aren't; they were just popular at the wrong time and took the brunt of America's ridiculous attitude to vaping

And Jam! Bit weirder, though

Of which there were 23 women and children. Something something Hamas

I think I agree more with the spam angle than the "only bad news" angle. As others have said it's fine to have a viewpoint and mainly share articles in line with that viewpoint. However doing it many times per day, every day, when the number of posts here is limited anyway, does impact the community.

In any case, the main thing is to be consistent and ideally make whatever the rule is very clear. And I would say this should be turned into an explicit rule or explanation under an existing rule.

Personally I just read what I want to, and if it seems bad faith, downvote and move on.

After his mother's death in 1971 he started taking antidepressants and amphetamines, despite the concern of his friends, one of whom (Ron Graham) bet him $500 that he could not stop taking them for a month. Erdős won the bet, but complained that it impacted his performance: "You've showed me I'm not an addict. But I didn't get any work done. I'd get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I'd have no ideas, just like an ordinary person. You've set mathematics back a month."

We still have no answer from them on what happened to Hind. God I wonder why surely the unflinchingly moral and self-investigating IDF wouldn't lie about or cover up what happened.

Israel is so bad that this isn't even shocking anymore

I think if you can't see the implications of this in the current context you are lost. This focus on the horrendous crimes that took place on October 7th is being used to justify a genocide. Of course it was horrendous. But ever since then we have seen a continuous stream of horrendous crimes, and narrowly focusing on the 1,200 victims of October 7th is a game to distract attention from the 35,000 + mainly innocent people who have been brutally killed in the almost 8 months since then and still being killed now.

This story on it's own is about despicable crimes and there would be nothing to object to. The wider context and specific timing make it more sinister