NoneOfUrBusiness @ NoneOfUrBusiness @kbin.social

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2 yr. ago

I mean isn't Botswana is doing pretty well for itself?

Tell that to the numerous UN resolutions the US vetoed and the three aircraft carriers it and the UK just have casually stationed there.

Hmm... Maybe something like the UK system? A parliamentary federal government with clearly stated limits on their power and high degrees of local independence should work for at least a century or two. Also at the time Palestinians hated Zionists, not Jews as a whole. Jews were, despite what Zionists would want you to think, not wiped out from Palestine or any of that jazz, and lived peacefully there until the whole Israel debacle. Now it'd definitely need a lot of international effort, but I still think it's very possible if done correctly.

Uh... No?

Israel is surrounded by a burgeoning bevy of enemies.

Wonder why.

They just left the table and that is partially one of the reasons why Palestine looks that way

No? Palestinians had been calling for a one-state solution at that point. It's just that nobody was listening.

Yeah. Don't you know? The UN is controlled by the countries that won WWII: The US, France, Britain, Russia, China and Hummus.

No no. Rabin was in favor of peace. The misinformation is the attempt at shifting the blame from the Israeli right that literally called for Rabin's assassination to Palestinian (admittedly misguided) armed resistance, with no mention of the former. Like yes I won't deny that Hamas and other organizations objecting to peace and ramping up their activities was fucking stupid, but pretending that the deal fell through because of that and not because the Israeli right couldn't let go of their Manifest Destiny is a pipe dream. And the thing is: It's a pipe dream nobody would seriously believe, or—in other words—a dog whistle.

This might strike you as dismissive, but the thing is: Attempting at shifting all blame for failure of negotiations to Palestinians (at a time when the largest Palestinian organization, the PLO, specifically disavowed violence and recognized Israel, no less) is a common Israeli tactic to make it look like there's no other way for poor poor Israel to defend themselves. So is pretending camp David 2000 (or worse, the US-led 2014 initiative) was a serious Israeli attempt at peace and blaming its failure on Palestinians. You learn to recognize these things, because they're ideas nobody who's discussing the conflict in good faith, and as educated as they imply they are, will actually believe.

A democratic state managed by who?

I mean depends on the specific implementation, but I think a parliamentary democracy is one of the best systems of government in the world and a perfect fit for the situation in a hypothetical one-state solution. Then you don't need external management, just hold fair elections and let democracy do its thing.

Isn’t Israel a democratic state, technically? I’m not trying to be facetious.

They are, sort of, but the issue lies in a few points:

1-Palestinians are overwhelmingly a minority. Even in a democratic system it's very easy to discriminate against 20% of the population. This is made worse by the fact that

2-Palestinians are woefully underrepresented in Israeli politics, even for their number. This is at least mostly due to deliberate Israeli disenfranchisement. Look no further than the Knesset reform that got Netanyahu into office: Multiple smaller parties (predominantly left leaning, many Arab) that used to have seats suddenly no longer did.

3-Israel as a state was built by European Jews. Not saying it's all European Jews, I know about half of Israeli Jews are Middle Eastern, but you only need to look at the Israeli government to get what I mean. Even after full-blown Apartheid was removed (and turned into lesser Apartheid) Palestinians were never given a fair chance.

I don't see any way for these issues to persist when suddenly 50% of the population is Palestinian.

It seems naive at first glance, but with strong international support I firmly believe it could work.

and I’ve seen that coexistence is possible.

Nobody is saying otherwise, not even Hamas (they dropped that in 2017).

Arabs have businesses, families, pay the same taxes as Israelis and run their lives. So the whole ethnic cleansing thing is hard for me to swallow

Do you see Native Americans having businesses, families and paying the same taxes as white Americans and find the idea that they were victims of genocide as soon as 150 years ago hard to swallow?

You need to remember something: Israel's UN-assigned borders (to say nothing of the territory they took in 1949) used to contain 55% of all Palestinians. The Palestinians who were driven from their homes during the Nakba were about half the total population. If there was no ethnic cleansing there wouldn't be Arab communities, because Arabs would be everywhere.

Hey come on, address his/her points without escalating.

There's no point to be addressed.

We had a chance of peace with Rabin, but Palestinians would not accept that Israel has much a right to exist as any surrounding Arab country.

Is misinformation, plain and simple. I can see the mental gymnastics they went through to get to this point, but just... no.

I’m all for a two state solution, but if I understood correctly, the expression “from the river to the sea” is intended to mean the elimination of all Israeli statehood within this particular region

It's a call for one state encompassing all of Palestine. The details vary (sometimes it's used with "drive them to the sea" rhetoric) but the original meaning, which is still used today, is calling for a democratic state where both Jews and Palestinians have full civil rights.

We had a chance of peace with Rabin, but Palestinians would not accept that Israel has much a right to exist as any surrounding Arab country.

What the fuck are you... A Zionist terrorist fucking murdered Rabin for daring to go through with peace you piece of shit. Then another Zionist came and called the whole thing off.

Yes, and I'm saying that they only gained those "full" (they're not) rights after 20 years of what is going on in the West Bank now.

Why did the Palestinians reject the Peel commission partition (and every subsequent two state proposals)?

I can go through all of them, but the short of it is: Palestinians had every right to reject the construction of an Apartheid ethnostate (that had explicitly stated it would expand beyond its assigned borders) being built on their land. That's the Peele commission, for the 1948 UN resolution it's the same thing and the fact that Israel would get land that at the time held half of the Palestinian population. There were no other serious 2-state solution proposals (except maybe the 2008 one that was done under the table so we don't know much about it).

We can’t go back in time. Its unfortunate, but Israel is there now. The question is what should we do now? Genuinely curious. I’m not saying this in defense of Israel. It’s where we are now.

Well the best solution is a one-state democratic, non-Apartheid state (certainly no nonsense about a Jewish homeland or nation state laws). The two-state solution is discussed as the next best thing because Israel is too attached to Apartheid to commit to a one-state solution, so from that point where we go now is the international community forces Israel to actually accept Palestinians' human rights, including right to self-determination, because God knows they won't do it on their own.

Uh... No? This whole mess started in 1917, maybe a bit earlier but no later than the 20th century.

Those are the people who were allowed to stay, ruled under military law (not unlike the modern West Bank) for 20 years and only then got anything resembling human rights. I say anything resembling because they are still second class citizens.

Removing 80% of a land's people (which is what Israel did in 1948-1949) is ethnic cleansing.

90% of the current crisis in Gaza is due to this small, vocal and extraordinarily hypocritical religious sect.

That's... an extremely optimistic interpretation of Israeli politics.

Not "just like". Israel is right up there with Syria.

Oh makes sense.