Killing_Spark @ Killing_Spark @feddit.de

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4

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326

Joined

2 yr. ago

Comeone you are going around all "Hurr durr humans aren't smarter than animals, we are so self-destructive" that's an edgelord position if I've ever seen one

Interesting how you ignore the reality of constant ethnic clashes and raids inside the borders of many african nations and also across borders e.g. Armenia vs Azerbaijan, Kosovo vs Serbia, Russia vs Ukraine or... Palestine vs Israel.

Easy now dont cut yourself on the edge you've got there bucko

"animals do it why shouldn't we" is one of the worst reasons to do something. Animals are literally dumber than us.

Ja moin

The man out there doing search engine optimization in real life

Warframe team should take notes

Wisp skin like this would be awesome

The argument "you don't need ubi in a non-capitalist world" doesn't work in a capitalist framing

I do think attraction to pubescent kids is more tolerated than paedophilia because of the extra “adultness”, but that doesn’t make it any more right

Being attracted to a pre-puberty or early-puberty child is not only considered wrong because they can't consent, it's also considered abnormal because they do not share any features of what a "normal" person would be attracted to, namely developed physical sexual traits. I don't think there is anything being muddied here.

The physical attraction part gets muddier the more puberty progresses. There isn't really an age limit for this as puberty works differently for everyone. The psycological/consent part gets muddier the more the age progresses combined with the changes puberty does to your personality, but it also depends on a ton of other factors, like the kind of upbringing in terms of sex-ed. There is a reason that the age of consent differs vastly even between US states and even more so internationally, even if you only include western europe.

A 12/14/16 year old kid is still just that, just a kid, no matter how much they’ll think they’ve grown up.

So this might be your opinion, many other people would say otherwise, it's not a hard fact. Especially if you go up to 16 where we allow people of this age to do all sorts of things. In USA you can drive a car, in germany you can buy and consume alcohol, they are sometimes already in an apprenticeship to get into a job. People generally start becoming people and stop being kids somewhere in that range.

So while bringing this distinction up muddies the water, it muddies the water only so far as it is already muddy, and this needs to be part of the conversation if it should have a relation to reality.

In the end, the problem is the same: an adult is attracted to someone who can’t possibly consent, and the only way they’ll get what they desire is through abuse.

So in conclusion I don't fully agree here. It's not the same, one is way worse than the other. That doesn't make it ok to get what you want through abuse from a 16 year old or wherever you want to set the age limit. Or from anyone for that matter, but younger people need to be better protected, because typically they are easier to abuse. Where that age limit is exactly, is somewhat a matter of opinion, as the different laws show.

It’s not even an idea, it’s how you get CSAM out of existing models

I didn't know this was a thing tbh. I knew that you could get them to generate adult porn or combine faces with adult porn. Didn't know they could already create realistic csam. I assumed they used the original material to train one of the open models. Well that's even more horrifying.

It’s possible the concept is never addressed, but I don’t think there’s any way to stop the spread of CSAM once you no longer need to exchange files through shady hosting services.

Didn't even think about that. Exchanging these models will be significantly less risky than exchanging the actual material. Images are being scanned by cloud storage providers and archives with weak passwords are apparently too. But noone is going to execute an AI model just to see if it can or cannot produce csam.

Yes there are a lot of open questions around this, especially about the who and how of generation, and tbh it makes me a bit uncomfortable to think about a system like this in detail, because it will have to include rating these materials on a "sexyness" scale which feels revolting.

Very good comment all around, I just have a nitpick to this section:

Lastly, there’s a very troubling thing I’ve noticed the majority isn’t willing to talk about: there are so, so many people out there who are attracted to kids. Not prepubescent kids, but very few 14 to 16 year old girls will not have had men approach them with sexual comments. The United States of America voted against making child marriage illegal. The amount of “I’ll just fuck this behaviour out of her” you can find online about Greta Thunberg from even before she was an adult is disturbing; people with full name and profile pictures on Facebook will sexualise and make rape threats to a child because she said something they didn’t like. There’s a certain amount of paedophilia that just gets overlooked and ignored.

Even worse, those people aren’t included in research into paedophilia because of how “tolerated” it is. The ones that get caught and researched are the sickos who abuse tens or hundreds of children, but the people who will marry a child won’t be.

This is actually called hebephilia/ephebophilia which is in the general public treated very similarly and often subsumed under the term pedophilia. It is considered it's own thing though. To quote Wikipedia:

Hebephilia is the strong, persistent sexual interest by adults in pubescent children who are in early adolescence, typically ages 11–14 and showing Tanner stages 2 to 3 of physical development.[1] It differs from pedophilia (the primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children), and from ephebophilia (the primary sexual interest in later adolescents, typically ages 15–18).[1][2][3] While individuals with a sexual preference for adults may have some sexual interest in pubescent-aged individuals,[2] researchers and clinical diagnoses have proposed that hebephilia is characterized by a sexual preference for pubescent rather than adult partners.[2][4]

My guess for why it is more tolerated than straight up pedophilia is that they have reached a more mature body, that shows some/most properties of a sexually developed person. So while it's still gross and very likely detrimental to the child if pursued (depends on the age in question, 16-18 is pretty close to adulthood), there seems to be more of an understanding for it.

You make a very similar argument as @Surdon and my answer is the same (in short, my answer to the other comment is longer):

Yes giving everyone access would be a bad idea. I parallel it to controlled substance access, which reduces black-market drug sales.

You do have some interesting details though:

Training a model on real CSAM is bad, because it adds the likeness of the original victims to the image model. However, you don’t need CSAM in your training set to generate it.

This has been mentioned a few times, mostly with the idea of mixing "normal" children photos with adult porn to generate csam. Is that what you are suggesting too? And do you know if this actually works? I am not familiar with the extent generativ AI is able to combine these sorts of concepts.

As far as I can tell, we have no good research in favour of or against allowing automated CSAM. I expect it’ll come out in a couple of years. I also expect the research will show that the net result is a reduction in harm. I then expect politicians to ignore that conclusion and try to ban it regardless because of moral outrage.

This is more or less my expectation too, but I wouldn't count on the research coming out in a few years. There isn't much incentive to do actual research on the topic afaik. There isn't much to be gained because of the probable reaction of the regulators, and much to lose with such a hot topic.

It being creepy and it doing harm are different things right?

I agree with this.

The more I learn about what porn does to our brains the more problematic I see it

And I agree with this especially. Turns out a brain that was/is at least in part there to get us to procreate isn't meant to get this itch scratched 24/7.

But to answer your concern: I will draw another comparison with addiction: Giving addicitive drugs out like candy isn't wise just as it wouldn't be wise to give access to generated csam to everyone. You'd need a control mechanism so that only people that need access get access. Admitedly this will deter a few people from getting their fix from the controlled instances compared to the completely free access. With drugs this seems to lead to a decrease of the amount of street-sold drugs though, so I see no reason this wouldn't be true, at least to some extent, for csam.

I'm just gonna put this out here and hope not to end up on a list:

Let's do a thought experiment and be empathetic with the human that is behind the predators. Ultimately they are sick and they feel needs that cannot be met without doing something abhorrent. This is a pretty fucked up situation to be in. Which is no excuse to become a predator! But understanding why people act how they act is important to creating solutions.

Most theories about humans agree that sexual needs are pretty important for self realization. For the pedophile this presents two choices: become a monster or never get to self realization. We have got to accept that this dilemma is the root of the problem.

Before there was only one option of getting a somewhat middleway solution: video and image material which the consumer could rationalize as being not as bad. Note that that isn't my opinion, I agree with the popular opinion that that is still harming children and needs to be illegal.

Now for the first time there is a chance to cut through this dilemma by introducing a third option: generated content. This is still using the existing csam as a basis. But so does every database that is used to find csam for prevention and policing. The actual pictures and videos aren't stored in the ai model and don't need to be stored after the model has been created. With that model more or less infinite new content can be created, that imo does harm the children significantly less directly. This is imo different from the actual csam material because noone can tell who is and isn't in the base data.

Another benefit of this approach has to do with the reason why csam exists in the first place. AFAIK most of this material comes from situations where the child is already being abused. At some point the abuser recognises that csam can get them monetary benefits and/or access to csam of other children. This is where I will draw a comparison to addiction, because it's kind of similar: people doing illegal stuff because they have needs they can't fulfill otherwise. If there is a place to get the "clean" stuff, much less people would go to the shady corner dealer.

In the end I think there is an utilitarian argument to be made here. With the far removed damage that generating csam via ai still deals to the actual victims we could help people to not become predators, help predators to not repeat, and most importantly prevent or at least lessen the amount of further real csam being created.

It makes me unreasonably happy that I knew what channel that is because I knew that animal from the main channel

He just wants to catch his daughter with her boyfriend and be able to yell "get out of my swamp"

But we did it to ourselves and not some weird alien! Hooray!

If it's actually present in clouds their water will be contaminated as well. They probably have a way lower exposure.