Evergreen5970 @ Evergreen5970 @beehaw.org

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8

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134

Joined

2 yr. ago

Just want to clarify that the “slippery slope” thing was 100% about how my brain works, not about others. I’m aware others can probably handle reveling in schadenfraude, without ending up wishing death upon anyone who inadvertently mildly inconveniences them. I just know I can’t.

I am not sure how I need violent experiences to assess risk properly. I’m pretty sure that most people who have and have not experienced violence assess risk the same way: by a combination of their own personal experiences and wisdom from those who have experiences they don’t. I’m happy to say I’m an exception to the commonly-stated “every woman you know has a sexual harassment story,” but I know how prevalent it is and how likely I am to stop being an exception because of others sharing their experiences. I don’t have to have experienced it myself in order to assess the risk of it. If that were true I would be inaccurately putting my risk of it at 0%.

I would also like to clarify that I take no issue with consensual violence, like that between boxers. As long as both participants were fully aware of the risks and nobody was coerced, as long as it’s true consent. I still can’t look, because I’m pretty squeamish, but that’s not the same as a personal objection.

I am a very open person and don’t believe in bottling things up. However, this is in general. I’m on board with suppressing something temporarily so you can deal with it in a more appropriate way at a more appropriate time. In high school, if I felt sad during a test, I set it aside. I knew I would feel even worse if I failed the test, which would be very likely if I spent the entire duration of the test crying and thinking about the thing that made me sad. So I did my best to ignore the feelings and focus on the test. Once I finished, I went to the bathroom and cried it out because I also did not believe in bottling up back then. Sometimes expressing your emotion right then and now is not constructive or how to get what you want, and you need to suppress it long enough to get into a situation where it won’t be deconstructive and won’t get in the way of what you want.

I also think some things are genuinely harmful and should be suppressed and you should find a different outlet to fill the urge. A desire to have sex with someone should absolutely be suppressed if the other party does not consent. Find a willing partner and if you can’t, masturbate. I get that it’s not the same if you only really wanted it with that one person, but consent is essential. Some people are alcoholics. For them specifically, the urge to drink is harmful for them and they need to suppress it (although I also understand very well this must be their choice, you cannot force them to do anything, just give them information and support if you have the space and energy for it). Fill the urge with a different non-alcoholic drink, with a new coping mechanism for hard times if the urge to drink comes from that, with a new hobby… In my worldview, a desire for violence is almost never constructive and should usually be suppressed. Anger should be expressed instead of bottled up, but not through violence towards people. I have no issue with people writing violent stories, playing violent video games, or hitting punching bags.

“Autistic mentor?” Where do I get one? I do have a professional diagnosis but I will take any help I can get. I’m glad you have several and it sounds like they’re helpful for you 🙂

I remember reading something about neurodivergent people reading other neurodivergent people at the same level that neurotypical people read neurotypical people, and the issue is when neurodivergent people and neurotypical people interact. However, my experience lines up more with what you said about neurodivergent people having trouble getting along with each other. I find myself constantly misunderstood by a particular neurodivergent individual, and some other neurodivergent people annoy me so much and I wish I knew why because they haven’t actually done anything wrong to me and I cannot identify what their annoying behavior is. I end up feeling bad because I wonder if it’s just internalized… neurodivergent-phobia? Think internalized homophobia but for neurodivergent people instead of LGBTQ+ people. If it’s that rearing its head. I do get along well with some other neurodivergent people, so I wonder what gives.

For anyone wondering what V&V is, it’s Vegan and Vegetarian. Found it as one of the new communities on this post. Might be obvious to some, but I am newer to Beehaw than that post is so I didn’t know until I searched V&V and found that post.

Link works! I really don’t mean this to come off condescending, just saying it because you appreciated my past Markdown fix—there’s an extra space between “Burton” and the period.

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog[bee](https://beehaw.org)].

will appear as

The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogbee.

You’re allowed to put things right up against the Markdown, you don’t need to have spaces before and after it. Though as you’ve seen, you can put spaces before and after. Just keep in mind the spaces will display.

Cis, just didn’t like my birth name because I don’t like the sound of it. Weirdly enough I’m fine hearing it said if you aren’t speaking to or about me. If you’re talking to or about someone else named [my birth name] it doesn’t bother me to hear the name at all.

Found my new name by going through baby name websites and writing down every name for girls that I liked. (I prefer to be very gender-conforming in my outward presentation and want my name to be so as well.) It was a very long list. Over time, I culled names from the list and ended up with two final choices. I forget how I decided between them, but what I can say is that during the entire process, I picked names based on how they sounded to me. After all, my grievance with my birth name is how it irritates me to hear it. I did not look up the meanings behind the names. They can be interesting, but my birth name had a perfectly fine meaning and that did nothing to endear me to it.

I think you have a space between the brackets and parentheses, because I still see the markdown used to make the link and the URL instead of seeing Moby Dyke by Krista Burton as an actual clickable link.

Should probably mention people have brought up to me that I’m apparently confrontational. I don’t do violence but I do speak up when something’s wrong. And I’m always willing to say the quiet parts out loud, which might make some people uncomfortable. (This is necessary in general life because half the time I can’t pick up on the quiet parts that most people would infer because of my autism, and need to have it confirmed whether I’m picking up on it correctly or if I’m off base.) I don’t think I’m any more conflict avoidant in general than the next person, just specifically violence-averse.

Is punching actually a way the working class communicates and something they like, or just something from your particular circle? I’m very wary of validating stereotypes of “ew, the nasty, brutish, gross and violent workers,” so I’m a little hesitant to take your word for it and accept that into my worldview, especially given how I see violence as extremely bad and a necessary evil. It also doesn’t match my own experience with working-class people, but it might also be colored by me being a woman and “never hit a girl” (I benefit from that but honestly, just extend that rule to everyone please unless they actually commit physical violence against you first?). Also, I’d imagine working class people recognize hitting people the wrong way can kill or permanently disable the target for life, some injuries will last and bother them for life, getting in a fight means you can get hit like that too, and they don’t have the greatest access to healthcare to mitigate any of these effects.

I’ve never ever liked to point at someone suffering and say “they deserve it.” At least for me personally, I know myself and that I’m going to slippery slope from cases where most people say they deserve it to “they were mean to me once online, they totally deserve their house burning down.” I do not care how popular it is to rejoice in the suffering of people you think deserve it, I hate it. I might not care as much about the suffering of someone people don’t like, but actively rejoicing in others’ suffering is something I find very very uncomfortable. Just because it is normal doesn’t make it okay to me. A lot of things are normal, like people getting a lot more health problems when they’re old, and I’m not okay with them.

I also don’t know everybody’s personal story and don’t want to start accepting myself as a good judge of who deserves misfortune. I don’t see all parts of your life. I see a very small fraction. I could have caught you on the worst day of your life and be judging you for that. Humans are subject to fundamental attribution error, where they overestimate the influence of circumstances and not personal traits in their own lives, but overestimate personal traits and underestimate circumstances for strangers. I don’t feel like making this judgment and piling abuse on a relative innocent who acted like a jerk a bit, because all I saw was the jerk behavior so of course that must be representative of who they are every day of their life. I’m not perfect. Who am I to judge, who am I to decide it’s time to hand out punishment and I should deliver it? Why do I get to make peoples’ lives more miserable? What makes me somehow more worthy than others, better than others, qualified to pass down judgment from on high and how do I know that I’m actually better?

I agree that silence in the face of violence is unacceptable. I understand that in some cases, people force you into a corner and violence is your only option if you don’t want to submit to their abuse. I’m just really not great personally with seeing violent action being taken, and since seeing that thread I think a lot of people are very quick to jump to violence when it’s not necessary because of the entire “you made me suffer, now suffer back” thing I despise. Just take away their ability to hurt others and help those they hurt. That’s all I want.

Just realized you may be asking about what I specifically do to help others if I don’t use violence. There’s still calling out bigots without punching them, supporting their victims, donating money to organizations that help vulnerable people, boycotting organizations that support or are directly built off of harming vulnerable people (there are way too many and no ethical consumption under capitalism so just focus on some of the worst offenders for now, like Nestle), and normalizing things that are currently different from the norm (like mental health issues and not being straight) and talking about them openly instead of treating them as something shameful to hide. I’m also not perfect and do not everything I could possibly do. I could volunteer at such organizations, attend protests, etc.

This article is “How to Kill a Decentralised Network (such as the Fediverse)” and it tells you how Googled killed a federated protocol for instant messaging, XMPP, by the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish process.

Hello! I assume that because you replied so far down here, you’ve read the entire exchange between the mod and I.

I usually do a decent job of curating my online experience to avoid seeing upsetting things, but at least at that time Beehaw was doing something where, once you login, your feed still shows the exact same thing as before login, regardless of whether you set your default view to Subscribed and regardless of what you have blocked. So I ended up seeing content that made me mad and I typed out a reply on it. I had this in mind when I commented on this Moderation Philosophy post, and was pretty sure the commenter who started this specific thread was also referring to that same post.

I fully understand there’s a decent chance people have had to face more than just seeing nasty things online from Nazis, and have personally seen them try to do harm in real life. You may live in an area where they may no longer be outnumbered and unpopular. Depending on your demographics, they might pose an existential threat to you. And of course if you have any interest in living, you must deal with the threat.

I’m curious about your perspective, but I also worry that I’m just going to set myself off when I read your reply. I am very much thinking of the lyric “you’re not good, you’re not bad, you’re just… nice” from Into the Woods and it’s probably an appropriate prediction of what I’ll have an honest emotional reaction to and what I’ll just coldly process. Both homophobic slurs and “lol [person doing hatecrimes] died good riddance” comments make me upset. I know I’m probably supposed to allow for space for the latter, but I frankly can’t handle it too well. I don’t think, in an ideal world, I should have to be able to handle that well, but I live in the real world and not an ideal world. Fact is, I have a hard time with not-nice behavior, from what I gather the good thing may be to let it fly sometimes so people can vent justified anger, and I am not good at doing that at all. So I try to cordon it off from my view so people can do that in peace and I don’t have to see it. So when I want to learn about your perspective… I think you can see the conflict of interest here. I want to learn about your perspective, I also want to not set myself off with something I know I don’t handle well.

Thank you very much for clarifying your intent! I appreciate it.

Fully aware of the harsh reality of the world, was just hoping I could find a lovely online escape and was disappointed to find what I thought was an escape is more 3/4 of one. At least the bigotry is gone (not even bigots getting dunked on by the general population but still existing on far too many posts, they’re just not there at all which is very nice), the bigotry-free but still not-nice comments consisting purely of “KYS” are gone, the “HAHAHAHAHA you actually believe that” condescension is gone, which is a lot better than I can say for most spaces and I thank you for that.

Problem: Emails only sent to approved users, not denials; denied users can’t reapply with the same username

• Solution: Made it so denied users get emails and their usernames freed up to re-use

Thank you, this was an issue on kbin.

So in nice, diplomatic words, you’re saying “toughen up buttercup, find therapy, because everyone has a hated group and you’ll have to accept ‘lol’ at deaths of the hated group and other nasty things you and everyone were taught not to say as kids, and everyone other than you thinks it’s actively acceptable instead of even mildly distasteful and something they might want to avoid online.” Did I process that right?

I don’t come across people saying this stuff in real life. It seems to be a purely online phenomenon, at least in my tiny little corner of the world.

Do you have any recommendations for a space like Beehaw that’s free of that kind of content? I suppose I’m oversensitive. I wouldn’t tolerate a Nazi on an instance but I also really really really do not like celebrating violence. It’s not celebrating “they can’t cause harm anymore,” it’s celebrating the act of punching. Taking an army against the Nazis stopped them from committing more atrocities on a large scale, this is fine. Never heard of punching individual Nazis stopping any of them from just plotting out how to hurt more people and get back at the person who punched them.

For me acceptable intolerance is deplatforming, making it illegal, taking away their megaphone and not letting them play ball, not “violence is GREAT against the intolerant group and we’ll celebrate it” instead of “violence is a necessary evil we sometimes have to take out to stop intolerant people for making it worse for us.” Not violating basic human rights. Even “nice” and “lol” when someone fucking dies is not something I can really get behind. I get why people have the feelings, I really do, but I don’t want to see it and I have to figure out how to curate my experience to easily avoid that given that a lot of online safe spaces for minorities actually don’t curate that out. What to do when you’re a minority that needs to not have “but freedom of speech” when people post slurs, but also needs to not have “lol” when someone dies…

I suppose I should have spoken more carefully because I fully understand the actual threat the rise of neo-Nazis can pose, especially given the anti-LGBTQ+ laws actually being enacted in the modern day. “Minority frustration” was probably reductive though I did not intend to be—I think I grabbed it from several posts on the topic of “are people allowed their vent spaces” and I need a better way to express that I understand the dangers while also managing to convey my point. I understand people need their vent spaces. I want to find a space safe from the vents.

Blocking a lot of the news subs should be pretty helpful, but I’m still curious if you know of any spaces that don’t tolerate bigotry but also don’t make room for these type of posts.

Ideally, we don’t want people dehumanizing others, ever. Realistically, if someone is intolerant to you, we’re not going to tone police you for responding in kind. There’s nuance in there we touched on a little with this post, but it’s hard to itemize every possible human behavior.

You’re posting that in reply to someone’s question about whether content about mugshots of awful criminals, about Nazi punching, and pedophile execution is acceptable, and their concern about whether it’s okay to dehumanize and wish harm on these people.

I am interpreting your reply as a diplomatically-worded and unclear way to say “Ideally, this kind of content would be unacceptable, but in practice we will let it fly because it’s just minority frustration at people being awful and telling them to stop would be tone policing.” I am also autistic and would like to know if my interpretation is correct, because my disability has gotten in the way of me interpreting people correctly before.

The rest of my reply to you was not a question but me stating my own views for context. I’ll try to explain it again, sorry for any confusion.

There’s annoying insults and there’s normalizing violence and dehumanization of the Other. I’m going to be disgusted with myself if I ever dehumanize even the worst person out of frustration. Have to remember that no, they’ve not monsters, they’ve made a series of bad choices that any of us could have chosen to make, we could all be “monsters” if we choose wrong enough. They’re not some odd other species of being that we could never ever fall into being.

I also heavily disagree with allowing that sort of content. Dehumanization leads down dangerous roads, such as believing you could never ever be like your enemy, because after all, they’re not human. It leads to violation of rights because hey, they hurt someone too, let’s make them feel the pain 3x worse as punishment! Allowing calls to violence just seems very bad to me too.

Kick them off the platform, figure out how to make acts of bigotry illegal, but I don’t believe in violence unless it’s protecting yourself or others. And what I see looks much less like a preemptive strike to protect yourself/others and more like “whee, acceptable target, it’s punching time baby!”

I hold the view that that content should not be allowed while also believing that Nazi content and “it’s just freedom of speech” justifications for Nazi content should be removed and the Nazi should be banned. I do not support them or their views at all, but I do support not allowing any calls to violence or dehumanization, even if the person you want to dehumanize is really really bad. I also perceive the recent Nazi-punching content to be less about violence for the sake of protecting others and more about having an acceptable target to dehumanize.

I read this as modspeak for “ideally, those posts wouldn’t be up, but because it’s usually intolerant people we’ll file the calls for violence towards these groups as just minority frustration that shouldn’t be tone policed.” Am I correct in my interpretation?

There’s annoying insults and there’s normalizing violence and dehumanization of the Other. I’m going to be disgusted with myself if I ever dehumanize even the worst person out of frustration. Have to remember that no, they’ve not monsters, they’ve made a series of bad choices that any of us could have chosen to make, we could all be “monsters” if we choose wrong enough. They’re not some odd other species of being that we could never ever fall into being.

Kick them off the platform, figure out how to make acts of bigotry illegal, but I don’t believe in violence unless it’s protecting yourself or others. And what I see looks much less like a preemptive strike to protect yourself/others and more like “whee, acceptable target, it’s punching time baby!”

Ahh, I was just explaining the part where fetishism can coexist with hatred. Not the denial and hypocrisy.

I still fundamentally don’t understand projection all that well. I’m not sure if that is something that might happen subconsciously, instead of as a planned malicious act. The only benefits I can think of from that are as a distraction tactic from your own problems.

But I can take a crack at denial and hypocrisy in forms other than projection!

Denial (refusing even to acknowledge it to yourself): I don’t want to deal with the fact that by my own standards, I am sinful. Maybe because I don’t want to see myself as sinful. Maybe because I don’t want to give the porn up just yet, so I ignore how “wrong” it is when watching. It’s what, 5 minutes of my life feeling guilty?

Denial (refusing to acknowledge it to others): I don’t want other people to view me as sinful. I don’t want them to even know I have the slightest temptation towards LGBTQ+ porn, lest they think I too am LGBTQ+ or a supporter of them—because honestly, I’m not. Aside from this one temptation, I’m anti-LGBTQ+. I don’t want to be ejected from my community over a pro-LGBTQ+ view I don’t have. And I certainly don’t want anyone who respects my opinion to start looking into pro-LGBTQ+ things under the mistaken belief I might approve in some way. Fundamentally, letting others know I have a problem invites consequences down on me that I don’t want to deal with.

Trying to punish others for the same thing you did: I know how wrong it is. And that it deserves to be punished. But frankly I’m selfish and don’t want to experience punishment, so I’ll try to hide my own involvement or excuse it while coming down hard on others. Alternatively, it’s different when I do it from when anyone else does it, so it’s okay for me to go punishment-free but not anyone else.

Setting aside that fetishizing LGBTQ+ and tossing them away is MUCH more serious than the following…

Most people know they shouldn’t eat the entire tub of ice cream in one sitting. They do it anyways, even if they tell their kids not to do it in the same breath. That’s because professed values often don’t line up with practiced values. You know it’s bad for you but it’s hard to deny yourself the pleasure in the moment. You can fully believe this is bad for you but do it anyways. No cognitive dissonance necessary, just a failure of self-control.

Same goes for LGBTQ+ hatred and fetishization in the same person. They “know” it’s sinful, but it’s hard to not give in in the moment. They can fully believe it’s sinful while failing to deny themselves the pleasure of lesbian or gay porn. No cognitive dissonance necessary, just a failure of self-control. Except with this case, they’re actively hurting other people instead of doing one small unhealthy step that might not even hurt themselves provided they don’t make a habit out of it.

I’m going to guess that part of why LGBTQ+ is fetishized is because it’s “forbidden fruit” for those who do believe it’s sinful. For specifically the L and G parts, if you’re a straight person then viewing L or G porn will expose you to only attractive members of your preferred gender. No having to see your nonpreferred gender participate in sexual acts while likely nude. And I understand most people tend to have a nudity taboo that really only goes away for babies, themselves in the shower, and people they’re attracted to.