Dasus @ Dasus @lemmy.world

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3,620

Joined

1 yr. ago

Sent "you"?

No, I posted one, and no I'm not saying that's the reason.

You're saying that the Bible being literally filled with contradictions doesn't matter, and you base that on there being too many contradictions to answer in a Lemmy comment.

If you were arguing in good faith, you could arbitrarily pick some and show why they're not actually contradictions. But you can't. You can't do it to a single one, let alone all of them.

And despite that, despite whatever, there is NOTHING that you would accept as proof of Christianity and monotheism being bad.

Literally nothing.

It doesn't matter that historically monotheism is obviously violent and crazy, it doesn't matter that the Catholic Church has been systematically raping little boys for God knows how long, NONE OF IT MATTERS TO YOU.

You're literally arguing in bad faith. Yet you pretend as if naming a fallacy makes you right. Then you get even more ashamed when I point out how nerdy and wrong it is to larp a philosopher by answering with a pretentious latin form of a fallacy. I point it out with a pretentious Latin form for the fallacy you used. Then you still refuse to actually produce any rhetoric.

Like I said, there is NOTHING that would change your mind in this. The ultimate bad faith.

I added this comment as an edit to the earlier reply but it was so much later O thought yo write this as a specific comment as well. Edit dammit, sorry I forgot to add the part I meant to write about how being trans and Christian on a practical level is completely different and mostly up to the people in any given local religious community. ideologically it doesn't fit but if you're trans and are asking whether other Christians can accept you? Yes, ofc they can. Christians are great at hypocrisy.

Was this a competition? I wasn't aware. Congrats, you won!

No, it's not a competition, but you implied that because you identify as a Christian and I no longer do, that you're in some sort of position of authority over it. ("If that's your only idea of Christianity" you said after tossing out some wild strawman I had nothing to do with.)

• Explain what is "good" about gay luxury communism

Oh you're making demands of my belief system, when this thread is about whether Christianity is compatible with being trans? No Christianity, a dogmatic religion with Old Testament in its scripture is not compatible with being trans on an ideological level.

One is a hateful ideology that hates anything different. And one is just existing as a trans person. There's no "trans ideology" that is being tested against it, but you're asking as if there were, since the ideology that Christianity has to fight is progressiveness; "being woke", as the kids say. The very thing that Star Trek enshrines.

What's atheists have to do with this? I'm not an atheist, as I've told you.

And no, I won't be hopping to your demands. You've answered none of my questions or explained your views even when I asked nicely. You simply ignore facts about Christianity, literally, and say "well that's no longer the case" "you don't actually have to believe in this sort of thing".

You made a point about a gay man going to an imam. Don't you think that with how large Muslim society is globally that there's literally millions of LGTBQ+ youths who are battling against their even more dogmatic religion? Don't you think it'd be kind of the same thing for a man to be gay and still defend Islam, as if you are (I'm not assuming anything and hopefully haven't at any point) trans and defend Christianity?

Why is it different to be a gay man and defend Islam, than being trans and defending Christianity?

What "status" are you talking about? You do know why the nowadays politically incorrect phrase "dark ages" existed, right? Europe had the dark ages while Asia was bloomimg. First universities were Islamic.

Hell, Christianity got rid of Europe's smartest. And forced it's dogma down everyone's throats for a few thousand years. Christianity came out on top because it was the least accepting and most punishing.

The amount of progressive sociological concepts that Christianity put down in just ancient Norse religion is massive. Greece too.

Do you think a gay man would have had trouble living 2500 years ago in Greece? No. Absolutely none. What about after Christianity took over..?

Edit dammit, sorry I forgot to add the part I meant to write about how being trans and Christian on a practical level is completely different and mostly up to the people in any given local religious community. ideologically it doesn't fit but if you're trans and are asking whether other Christians can accept you? Yes, ofc they can. Christians are great at hypocrisy.

So you're arguing that Christianity has evolved out of it's core tenets?

I'm sorry, but monotheism is dogmatic. Another word that's sure to ring a bell, but you seem to have missed the meaning of it.

Christianity is a dogmatic religion. Google the sentence if it doesn't make sense otherwise. Or more specifically, it contain dogma.

Excellent movie btw, for Christians or non-Christians, all alike. Full movie on YouTube completely for free and good quality https://youtu.be/XlIORIds1xc

As an exercise, imagine you are a gay man and you went to talk about it with a priest. Now imagine the same gay man going to talk about it with an Imam. How do you think these conversations would go?

Both would work quite well in Finland.

In Iran or the US, theocracies, they wouldn't work either.

You know that monotheism is exclusive and hates differences. Yet you're too fucking scared to call them out on what they are, because the Mary-Sues and Josephs at your local bible-camp wouldn't like it.

Monotheism is absolute cancer which hates everything different.

Anyone who's read basics of history and theology knows that

Back in polytheistic societies like Norway and Greece etc, people were far more progressive than comparative monotheist societies.

Yet you defending Christianity. It's ridiculous. You don't know anything and you don't follow any tenets. So you don't actually believe in the 10 commandments. Who the fuck does?

Yet you're too scared to call it the BS it is. You can still enjoy community without claiming to be a Christian. Perhaps in America you can't..?

Oh you're at the infantile "I'm gonna name a fallacy as an argument" stage of your development. Congrats on turning 16.

Unfortunately, what you're doing is called argumentum ad logicam.

More commonly known as the fallacy fallacy

If this is your only idea of "being Christian", then I'm certainly not it.

Dude I've literally shown you how much more I know and understand about Christianity than you do. You know that you didn't know what a confirmation is, much less being able to name ALL the sacrament. Hell, you probably even wouldn't be able to define the word without googling.

I can list all the sacrament, because I've studied the Bible and Christianity, as a former Christian who was brought up in Christianity.

But you don't even admit to your ignorance about your own faith, when said ignorance is literally the point of this conversation.

Because of the community that comes with it.

Yeah, just like I said, hypocritical believers who are just too scared to admit the ONLY REASON they're identifying as Christians is LITERALLY that others wouldn't accept them not identifying as a Christian.

That's exactly my point.

However in more secular countries, you can. You don't need to be a part of the church to engage in social activities and people don't socially hang you out to dry if you acknowledge what ridiculous contradictory bullshit the Bible is.

Because other religions seems to treat this world as a mere passage way, and Judeo-Christian cultures are also concerned about working to leave this place better than what was found.

WRONG. Propaganda, bullshit and utterly fucking wrong.

Monotheism is a destructive and hateful. It's indoctrination, and make people worse than they would be without monotheism. Without monotheism, we would already have our gay luxury space communism.

I know more about Christianity than you do, you're just scared to accept Criticism_of_monotheism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_monotheism

As if you could.

You've not even read the whole thing, I would bet.

Much less being able to suss out literally hundreds of contradictions. So what you're saying is "it doesn't matter how ridiculous and contradictory Christianity is, I would never accept that being the case, no matter the evidence. I've made up my mind and there's no changing it. It's called having faith."

And I'm saying that arguing over the validity of "claims to be Christian" is irrelevant to anyone but fundamentalists.

This is what I meant with the part about how you could change your religion in the conversation to be literally whatever and the conversation would still be exactly the same. So clearly you don't even know the tenets or sacraments or anything about Christianity, so why would you identify as one?

Social pressure from which side? Taking this thread as a sample, it seems that the only ones that care about "claims of being Christian" are the extremists.

We don't know each other in any social context. Me using logic here is not "social pressure". Your grandma being pissed at you if you had to point to her what a whackadoodle you need to be to profess belief in the Bible is social pressure.

Did I mock my grandma for her religion or criticise Christianity to her? Of course fucking not, I loved her. But this is a literal thread asking about religion, and I'm pointing out the hypocrisy, which I think isn't wrong for this thread.

I'm asking pretty simple questions and not saying what people should do or believe in.

that everything must be taken literally

And if you say you have a belief system, but then that belief system doesn't have any tenets, any scripture, and the scripture it has means nothing or that you actually haven't even read the scripture that you claim to believe in "non-literally", you don't actually have a belief system.

To be accepted into the Church, you need to accept Jesus and renounce your sins. No one was asked to read the whole Bible and accept it as some Terms and Conditions.

Jesus, you really don't know jack shit of the religion you claim to believe in. Yes, there very much is a "read thr while Bible and confirm your Faith.

It's literally called a confirmation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation

Now the practice in the modern world isn't as common, because it's easier to just default to "you accepted the T&C with your Baptism", but it is still a literal SACRAMENT in the religion. (I don't believe you could list other sacraments, or even the meaning of the word.)

I have had a confirmation. You literally spend a week reading the Bible, after which you get confirmed. No, you can't fail, it's not a test, but it does show you how ridiculous the Bible is and it's just a fun thing for teenagers to do and you get loads of money as presents from family members.

You don't seem to know anything about Christianity, you don't seem to have any rules set by it, you don't seem to be able to say you believe in any specific bit in it, yet you claim that you definitely are.

And I'm just asking WHY?

You could just as well claim you're some other religion, like Buddhism, and then just pretend your beliefs come from that. As of now in this conversation, changing your religion wouldn't change the conversation a single bit. That's how little Christianity matters to you, but you since there's social pressure, you won't accept any of this.

Who cares.

I'm pointing out that any definition includes believing in the Bible, as it's a core tenet in Christianity.

I'm not here to tell you what to believe. I'm just saying my personal belief is that anyone claiming to be Christian (other monotheist) while not even having read the scripture is a hypocrite who's only doing it out of social pressure.

More ignoring and crying how "you're not supposed to take it seriously, but actually we tell everyone that taking it seriously is the 1. tenet of Christianity and that we do take it seriously, but NONE OF US EVEN ACTUALLY READ IT LOL"

Read the fucking thing and if you're not a coward, you'll stop calling yourself a Christian.

No pls don't attempt to defend it before you actually fucking read the Bible.

"Make it easier for me to ignore facts"

Wtf are you smoking

Please do elaborate on what you mean.

How else would I know? What you're saying seems to have literally nothing to do with Christianity.

You can't state what said values are, nor do you say whether your "acceptance" of them means you try to follow them or if you believe in them?

The fact you can't really find those answers should be a hint to the amount of indoctrination around organised religion, for the reasons I've explained. I had it when I was around 18, one night at the night club, we were outside for a smoke, and this ~10 years older guy just enquires — in somewhat good faith — why I wear the cross around my neck. It was a golden cross and I got it as a confirmation gift at 15.

But the question stuck with me, and I ended up taking it off. I don't remember whether on the spot or months later.

But the facts are that if people genuinely just go with whatever we think is moral at the time, then why on Earth would anyone claim to found their moral ideology on a book they have to literally mostly ignore?

It doesn't make sense.

Now if you'd just asked "do you think you can be accepting of people who act according to the golden rule", then ofc the answer is "well yes, there's zero reason why you wouldn't".

Pretty much the only reason you're asking this is because you know that "Christian values" can refer to conservative transphobic values as well. I'm sure the ones you're asking for aren't, but you're aware it's a possible meaning of the word.

So please, elaborate. I can't read your thoughts, so I can't actually know what you mean unless you explain what you mean by "Christian values"

Ah, so it's the "no, actually I am a Christian, despite not following any of the rules. I just make up my own".

And you don't see why ideology like that is mocked in some very secular countries?

If you claim to be Christian, but then take literally everything to mean whatever you want it to mean, except when it's something you don't like (when religious people protest it's always "It's not in the Bible!" = "it's against Christian values which is the term we're just calling our feelings but here's a clip from the book we don't believe in"), then why are you calling yourself a Christian to begin with?

The answer is because you're afraid of denouncing Christianity and organized monotheism as the bullshit they so very clearly are.

What are these "Christian values" of yours then? Oh the very core or Jesus' teachings, which is the very core of pretty much any even remotely functional ideology, the golden rule; do unto others as you'd have done to yourself.

It's not in any ways inherently Christian. Judaism, Confucianism, Islam, Buddhism and various others all have it.

So if that's all you're taking from Christianity and nothing that's unique to Christianity, then why call your values Christian? Because you dislike explaining yourself to annoying older relatives, that's why.

But if you can come out as trans, then surely awkward conversations with conservatives are already on the books, so why not go all in and actually take the smart stance in religion as well.

I'm not an atheist, by the way. I used to be. Just like I used to be Christian. First I grew out of Christianity, and then I grew out of atheism. So I don't know what you think I'm "preaching"?

No eagerness here. Just very boring facts, which you have to ignore to make your case.

The Bible literally instructs to stone people wearing two different fabrics at the same time. A leather jacket and jeans (cotton) ? That's a stoning.

Just because your society hasn't moved past beyond having to pretend childish books are real, doesn't mean everyone here will agree. There are still people here who claim to be Christian, but the Nordics are very secular and you'd never have anyone be upset that something is "against Christianity".

The US is almost a theocracy nowadays, which is so ironic, given how it began and what the founding fathers actually argued for.

It's genuinely just business.

Legalise all drugs and this all goes away.

There's no Al Pacino's shooting up the streets since the prohibition was lifted. Weirdly alcohol companies which can rely on the law don't find a need to take a Thompson to their business opposite's offices.

Whereas the Sinaloa cartrel does. They can't just let shit go. You've seen drug shows. (There's genuinely so many it's annoying.)

You're both kinda silly.

Divorce is very much in the Bible. In both Old and New testaments.

Honestly I don't think I've ever met anyone calling themselves a Christian who has actually read the Bible from cover to cover, aside from actual pros (that is actual students of theology).

I was. I did. Now I'm not. And it's not a coincidence.

Christianity is unsuitable with itself, for Christ's sake. It would be literally impossible to follow the Bible with the amount of contradictions there are.

That being said all monotheism is hot garbage.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_monotheism

Prepping a little bit of "undesirables" rhetoric.

Lemmy is fucking swimming in shit propaganda

"The opposite of drowning is asphyxiation"

Nah man, it's being able to breathe.