The last 30 years of Israeli state policy after the Oslo accords has resulted in facts on the ground (Israeli phrasing, not mine) to the tune of 700k Israeli settlers in the West Bank.
Which is wrong.
As the various calls for two states invariably ignore the Israeli facts on the ground, and do not propose any realistic vision for undoing them, at this stage they are merely promoting the creation of a Bantustan within the existing apartheid framework.
Anyone who actually agrees with the two state solution agrees that the borders go back to 1967, and everyone on both sides will have a right to return.
In other words, the israeli facts on the ground have killed off the possibility of a two state solution, where Palestine would be an actual state. This means there are only two options:
A) a continuation of the apartheid regime of the present, potentially with a Palestinian collaborationist Banstustan, and with various degrees of Israeli perpetrated genocide and ethnic cleansing thrown in during the inevitable flare-ups of violence.
B) a plurinational post-apartheid democratic state with equal rights for all nationalities and religions from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.
The chance for a Palestinian state is not gone, and Israel is not alone in making that harder. Even if you ignore Israelis and Palestinians, plenty of other groups don't want peace and sabotage it when it is close.
Neither one of your solutions is viable, and it isn't that black and white.
I guess the third option is for Israel to self-ethnically cleanse the settlers from the West Bank, but that sounds even more outlandish than the supposedly idealistic option B.
This is not helpful or useful in this conversation.
There used to be an phrase that Israel can be “large, Jewish, democratic, but can only pick 2”. Over the last 30 years since Oslo, successive Israeli governments, more or less dominated by the Israeli Right, and basically by Netanyahu, has forced the choice of “Large”. So now the Israelis have to pick between Zionism and Democracy.
It isn't circular logic because international law is what gives a country a right to exist. It isn't any more complicated than that for the sake of this conversation.
And you watched the news for the past year and concluded that Palestinians are the problem?
I have been studying this issue since the early 2000's. I did not just start watching recently like the majority of the loudest ignoramus' in the conversation.
I mean, of course they are. They murder their own children, they play sounds of crying babies so that other Palestinians come out to find it so they can snipe those idiots, they murder ambulance drivers and the little child that was a witness to that massacre, I mean Palestinians are evil, man!
Oh wait, that was all the IDF.
The IDF is not a saint in this and that is absolutely obvious. This is what happens when leaders with genocidal rhetoric gain power. They use the military for their own purposes, which are usually genocidal.
This does not change the actions of Hamas, or the Palestinians who support Hamas, and those actions do not justify the attacks on civilians.
Yeah, Hamas is an issue and you’d have a point to mention that (because I can already see you furuously scribbling that) of it weren’t for the fact that Hamas is (in good part) funded by Israel just to give the Israeli army an excuse to murder even more Palestinians.
They funded Hamas, and from what I know, no longer fund Hamas. Which was absolutely disgusting. They are also funded by numerous other countries in modern times including Iran.
Nazis were the evil monsters of the 1940s. The Israeli government and army are the evil monsters of, well, the past 50 or so years? I remember the news reports fucking 40 years ago where the IDF would snipe murder young Palestinian kids because they throw rocks at them… All of these fucks should be swinging from the highest crane we can find
Yes, we should deal with everyone who has committed war crimes.
But you may not want to go back to Nazi Germany to hold your point about the "Peaceful Palestinians" though. In case you didn't know, the Palestinians worked with the Nazis and made a deal that stated they would help with the war effort if after the war Germany came and exterminated all of the Jewish population in what was then Mandatory Palestine.
There is also Iran, Russia, China, and numerous other countries with skin in the game. The point is there are really only two sides to the issue and it is "Israel and Palestine get to exist or one group gets to leave". Anyone who does not believe in a two state solution can go fuck themselves back to 1967.
Nothing but giving back all post 67 land to Palestinians , giving the right to return to Palestinians who was ethnically cleansing and want to go back to Israel while accepting their laws and also having an army to defend the state for any other potential aggression
I would also include right to return for Israelis who wish to return to their home lands they were ethnically cleansed from under the condition they abide by the laws there as well.
But you are just here to argue, so again, you don't see the middle ground.
You do understand that Palestinians are being oppressed by Hamas right? They have moved the goal post so many times themself it is clear they also don't want peace. Especially considering their goal is to ethnically cleanse Israel.
Which is my damn point. Both sides need to stop because innocent civilians are dying daily, and the rest of the world needs to stop fucking around and disarm both parties to intervene for real.
I absolutely agree, Israel is very much doing incredibly unjust, disgusting, and unimaginable things right now but that doesn't change the situation on the other side or what they have done.
Why hasn't Hama's surrendered and returned the remaining hostages and bodies if peace is their goal?
Why you needed to edit this 3 times in a couple of minutes, and then repost it after I responded, I can only assume you actually were hoping to get an out of context response, so I still won’t bother responding to your genocidal rhetoric about a 1 state solution, or continue this conversation further as I see you as a major part of the problem and do not have the energy to deal with you.
Nothing but giving back all post 67 land to Palestinians , giving the right to return to Palestinians who was ethnically cleansing and want to go back to Israel while accepting their laws and also having an army to defend the state for any other potential aggression or a one state solution with equal rights to everybody would be accepted
You need to learn to recognize someone who agrees with you before arguing with them in the future. We know what needs to happen on the Israeli side for peace, my point is there is another side that has problems that need solving as well and that Palestinians are responsible for their side.
Why you needed to edit this 3 times in a couple of minutes I will never know. Likely hoping to get an out of context response I assume so I won't bother actually responding to your genocidal rhetoric about a 1 state solution, or continue this conversation further as I see you as a major part of the problem and do not have the energy to deal with you.
I am not wasting further time with you.