If purchasing isn’t owning, then piracy isn’t stealing
Jordan Kendrick :popos: (@jordan_kendrick@fosstodon.org)
I am ashamed that I hadn’t reasoned this through given all the rubbish digital services have pulled with “purchases” being lies.
"Piracy isn't stealing" doesn't require a qualifier. It's objectively a separate, lesser crime. That correlation is just the result of effective, aggressive marketing that conflates the two. It was so effective that everyone misremembers the "you wouldn't steal a car" ad.
I think you mean this one
Thanks for that trip down memory lane. I was just a child when I saw that, and my first thought was "but... But when I steal from someone, they don't have it anymore. If I download it, they still have it"
lol. You give an ad spot way too much credit
Call it "illegal copy" (because fuck customer rights with "usage licenses") and we're good.
The one with the pirated music?
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Isnt the free market supposed to self-regulate?
If companies can exploit it, why shouldnt we?
No, free market isn't "supposed" to self regulate. That's silliness. The only people who say that have no understanding of the concepts.
Regulation is required. Unfortunately with regulatory capture it's not happening.
Yep. The self regulating market is either utopian vision by blind idealists or double speak for maximizing profits and fucking over anybody and anything while doing it.
"Piracy" has never been stealing except for the boats and parrots kind.
It's not stealing if it's been stolen before! Arrr
I'm the guy who coined this phrase on a Louis Rossmann video and I'm so proud!
I was there
I had no idea it would turn out to be such a big deal until my friend linked me a Lemmy post with my YouTube name in the picture. 🤣 Then I realized I had an absurd number of YouTube notifications! Interestingly enough, YouTube has some kind of interesting way to taper the notifications off so they aren't overwhelming.
Got a link?
Yes. https://lemmy.world/post/1098344
I'm the guy in the pic.
Copying information is a nonrivalrous activity. To steal inherently requires the owner to be deprived of a thing, and copying does not deprive an owner of a thing. Copying therefore cannot really in "stealing."
The industry argument for that is "you're stealing our potential revenue". I personally subscribe to one streaming service. That's it. If what I want to watch isn't on that, I hoist the anchor and set sail.
The predictable way that video streaming services became content islands and actually a worse user experience than cable really shows how the industry would rather provide worse experience and cash grab than attract more customers naturally. By contrast, I can subscribe to one music service, and listen to literally every artist I can possibly want to. As soon as video streaming does that (at a reasonable price), piracy for video will plummet like it did for music.
you’re stealing our potential revenue
Which is ridiculous. It's like suing someone for tapping you on the shoulder while you're deep in thought, claiming that you almost came up with a great invention but their interference meant you lost your train of thought. Therefore, by tapping you on the shoulder, they owe you millions of dollars of lost potential revenue from that invention.
In addition, you have to consider whether they're morally justified in receiving that revenue. Say someone manages to bribe the government so that they get paid $1 every time someone says "shazam". If you say "shazam" and don't pay them, they lose $1 in potential revenue. But, is this potential revenue that they are morally justified in collecting? Copyright law is just as ridiculous as "shazam" law. In both cases the government came up with a rule that allows someone to collect revenue simply because the government says so.
IMO the entertainment industry has ridiculously warped copyright. It used to be that copyright was a 14 year term, renewable for another 14 years if the author was alive. Under that rule, Forrest Gump would just have had its copyright expire. That seems pretty reasonable. It cost them $55 million to produce, and it brought in $678 million, it's probably mostly done making money for them. Time for their rights to expire, right? Nope, they get to keep their monopoly until 2114. It's fucking ludicrous.
Copyright is supposed to be a balance between what's good for people creating something, and the general public. The creator is given a short-term monopoly as an incentive to create, that's how they benefit. The public benefits because after a short time that creation becomes public. The alternative is no copyright, where creators need to be paid up-front by someone like a patron, and what they create becomes public immediately. The patronage system is responsible for all kinds of magnificent art like most classical music, the ceiling of the Sistine chapel, etc. The argument for copyright is that the patronage system wasn't good enough, and the public could benefit even more by allowing a short monopoly for the creator. But, with the lobbying of the entertainment cartel, the public benefit is far worse. You now still effectively have the patronage system controlling what art gets made (the entertainment cartel), they then also keep that art from the public for more than a century.
So, yeah. Fuck copyright.
If you didn't buy something today, you're stole potential revenue. Louis Vuitton needs that money to survive!
Digital piracy is not theft, by definition. Theft requires taking something with the intent to deprive the owner, copying things does not deprive the owner.
Digital piracy is copyright infringement, which (in the vast majority of cases) is not even a crime. It is a civil offense.
Counterpoint:
I wrote a book. Sold maybe 10 copies. If someone "pirated" my book, they are depriving me of the $2 or whatever Kindle Direct pays.
Admittedly not a significant amount, but it does fulfill the definition, imho.
It explicitly doesn't.
If you have a hard copy book and someone steals it, you're not only losing out on the potential sale price of the book, but the tangible value you have already paid to produce that copy.
Say the book is $12, you get $2, the publisher gets $5 - the book store buys it for $7, and sells for $12 making $5 profit. If you steal from the book store, they've lost a potential profit of $5, but more importantly they've actually lost the $7 they already paid for it. This is what theft is about, the value of a possession taken away, not the potential value.
With a digital book, each individual copy costs nothing. It costs something to make the original, but making a copy is free. Thus the only thing you've lost is the potential profit, which arguably you wouldn't get anyway as the person didn't want to buy from you to begin with - just because they downloaded it for free does not mean they would have paid full price if a free download wasn't an option.
With theft, you have a tangible loss. With digital piracy, the only loss is opportunity to profit.
I assume when the purchase happened there was an agreement that said something like this might happen. If not, then people can sue Sony for the stealing. If so, then trying to argue that this means piracy isn't stealing is sophomoric at best.
I don't get why my fellow pirates try so hard to justify what they're doing. We want something and we don't want to pay the price for it because it's either too expensive or too difficult, so we go the cheaper, easier route. And because these are large corporations trying to fuck everyone out of every last dime, we don't feel guilt about it.
Embrace the reality instead of using twisted logic to try and convince yourself that it's something else.
I don’t get why my fellow pirates try so hard to justify what they’re doing. We want something and we don’t want to pay the price for it because it’s either too expensive or too difficult, so we go the cheaper, easier route. And because these are large corporations trying to fuck everyone out of every last dime, we don’t feel guilt about it.
Justification is important to those who act against unethical systems. You have to separate the opportunists from the rest. An opportunist will loot any defenseless shop without the slightest sense of ethics. That’s not the same group as those who either reject an unjust system or specifically condemn a particular supplier (e.g. Sony, who is an ALEC member and who was caught unlawfully using GPL code in their DRM tools). Some would say it’s our ethical duty to do everything possible to boycott, divest, and punish Sony until they are buried.
We have a language problem that needs sorting. While it may almost¹ be fair enough to call an opportunist a “pirate” who engages in “piracy”, these words are chosen abusively as a weapon against even those who practice civil disobedience against a bad system.
I think you see the same problem with the thread title that I do - it’s clever but doesn’t really give a solid grounds for ethically driven actions. But it still helps to capture the idea that paying consumers are getting underhandedly deceptively stiffed by crippled purchases, which indeed rationalizes civil disobedience to some extent.
Some would say it’s our ethical duty to do everything possible to boycott, divest, and punish Sony until they are buried.
If that's the goal, the better approach would be to not consume the media at all, and being vocal as to why you are doing this. Pirating it just shows them that the demand will still be there, despite how bad they supposedly are as a company, so that they just need to learn how to bone you too. It's like saying "you're a bad company. . .but damn do I like your product and will consume it anyway!" it doesn't make much sense, logically or morally.
it’s clever but doesn’t really give a solid grounds for ethically driven actions.
Clever? Maybe. Sophomoric? Absolutely. By misrepresenting why they are losing access to this media, they are effectively admitting that piracy is actually stealing. As I've said elsewhere, piracy is not the action of a neutral/chaotic good character, as many among piracy circles like to pretend, but the actions of a chaotic neutral character.
But make no mistake about my position. People losing access to stuff they purchased (and probably thought was now theirs) is just another in a long list of reasons I say "fuck those bitches" and have really no moral qualm with pirating content.
I have several games on Steam that I've "played" for less than an hour but have most of the achievements for because I've purchased it after finishing a pirated copy.
In agreement with you! I don’t get why the need to justify. First of all life isn’t about fairness, and people and corporations both need money to survive. Individuals and corporations make all the effort to get more for less.
If there was a need to justify it should be as simple as corporations take things for free all the time, be it tax brakes, labor, IP, whatever and try to get by with it without it being “stealing” it. Artists take ideas, copy, repurpose all the time and get by without “stealing” when they can.
In the seas one should be reasonable and take what they “need” (actually a want) “for less”, without violence, instilling physical harm, and they are good to go. Life isn’t fair.
Above all, like you said, people in general want things for less with the least friction. For some people the seas are dangerous and present too much friction to get in and out unscathed, these people will pay to get something. Sailors do not want to pay and accept some of the risks, and for those sailors that know how to do it well the risks and frictions are small.
There is no need to justify to the ego whether it is stealing or anything else. It is just taking and sharing. And doesn’t the saying goes that “sharing is caring”? ;-)
Thank you. I swear some people must be exhausted with all the mental gymnastics they do for self justification.
The ways they try to justify ad blockers as their god given right is equally frustrating. It's okay to use an ad blocker (and you should!). Please stop acting personally insulted when sites then attempt to make your ad blocker useless, it's just how things go.
Advertising is horrible
I'm all for piracy but I still try to spend money where it morally makes sense to me.
I'll buy, rent or subscribe to content from actual creators or artists or developers if I know I am supporting their livelihoods or careers.
I'll pirate content if I decide for myself that the content has already paid for the livelihoods of the creators or workers who produced the material and now it's only the title holders and corporate interests that are profiting from the ownership and entitlement of controlling the content for commercial reasons only. For me this is mostly just big budget movies, old films and commercially produced music.
To me, anything that's already paid to help the original artist or creators should be made public. Locking it away and making people pay for the privilege of the content just to make more profit for someone else is piracy itself. This is especially true for films and music that are so old that the original artists and creators and owners are multi millionaires or just no longer exist.
I may be wrong but that is my own personal view of collecting digital content.
The long and short of the argument is "fuck the people who farm everyone else's efforts for millions. They don't own ideas or information."
Someone ripped off your YouTube video you worked hard on? I'm mad. Motherfucker cropped out your watermark and everything!
Someone copy your big budget movie? I don't give a fuck. You're Fox who makes it their business to lie to everyone and buy up control.
Nowadays you can almost reach every creator out there, and we use thousands of content and tools.
How would a financially average person can afford to pay these creators in such a scale?
A dollar at a time ... I'm willing to give or donate a dollar, two dollars or even five at a time ... if we all did that with a popular creator, they'd easily be able to reach a lot of money in a short time.
I donate to wikipedia, Open Source Software projects I use, firefox, thunderbird, ubuntu (although I am getting skeptical about this one) and other linux projects .. on top of that I send funds to creators, app developers and lemmy instances and other fediverse projects and those people who maintain the software, servers and communities in the fediverse
In all, I probably spend about three or four hundred dollars a year or more to these projects ... but I know that for the majority of them, the money is going to people that need it .. not to people who just want to add to their wealth after never contributing anything of value other than their ownership of someone else's work.
And if we all did this as users across the board ... these small content creators would have more than enough to sustain themselves and continue creating and maintaining these projects
Piracy is not stealing, but both piracy and stealing from corpos are good to do
Yeah I'm a huge pirate but I also have subscriptions to publications, buy a bunch of games, buy music and even have almost every release from a few labels, go to concerts as much as I can. It's not about the money for me at all
We should call it archiving instead of piracy to be honest.
Great idea! It's up to us to preserve culture, we can't leave it to those only motivated by profit otherwise cultural history will be lost when it becomes unprofitable.
And since we're not coordinating, I'd better make sure I preserve the bits of culture important to me.
Better yet, let's call it "arrchiving"!
They say we've got it all wrong, it's not the items we're stealing. It's he money they think they should've gotten from that item.
In five years, they'll be telling us it's stealing not to go see the latest marvel movie.
Please drink a verification can.
I used to have Netflix, HBO Max, Youtube Premium, Disney Plus, Amazon Prime and "Videoland". But since I used Linux, I could not stream with a higher bitrate. I could not download for offline playback, I had to jump through hoops to get things to play every now and then.
They also did not always have everything I wanted to see, or I had to pay extra for "premium early access" (Disney).
So I was fed up, learned about using multiple usenet backbones, how to send sabnzbd through VPN's, Radarr, Sonarr and Overseerr. Now I only have Netflix and Youtube Premium for my wife. And Plex for myself. And access to much more content.
And I do not consider it stealing, i consider it to be the natural result of them trying to gouge me while still not providing me.
I’m in the exact situation you are. The arr suite is a game changer.
Theft isn't specific to property, you can steal services too.
The water is certainly muddy with digital media, but this is just another oversimplified argument.
If you need to do mental gymnastics to feel OK about pirating then...idk find something better than this.
See comments below for more mental gymnastics
People who assert property rights (including limited monopoly rights on intellectual property) are doing mental gymnastics too. We're just used to them, thanks to a century of propaganda after the great depression.
The current state of wealth distribution a century later doesn't seem to carry the promise that capitalism can be fair.
In fact, IP maximalism (Thanks, Walt!) has denied the public a robust public domain, and our courts struggle to do the mental gymnastics to understand why we have a public domain in the first place.
That is to say, the US and EU have totally lost the plot.
Property rights aren't even fair. Big guys assert them, and little guys have them taken away. A good comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/5648831
If I were to steal cable, I would be using the cable company's resources to deliver content to my house without paying for it. If I were to set up an inductor under a power line to steal power, I would be depriving the power company of power they could have sold to somebody else without giving them anything in return.
When I torrent something, I don't even put any additional load on Netflix's servers. With their current monetization scheme I don't even make the show's producers any less money.
And when you subscribe to 1 or 2 rotating streaming services and only torrent for personal archiving purposes, you aren't even depriving the streaming services of any revenue.
When you steal cable, you don't deprive the cable company of anything.
When I torrent something
wrong.
I torrrented a gratis OS called Arch the other day. Please understand torrenting doesn't equate to copyright infringement.
It’s not gymnastics. It’s a pretty easy step. Corporations fuck you over. You fucked them over. No mental gymnast skills required for that
Theft isn’t specific to property, you can steal services too.
You can't really "steal" services, even though they sometimes call it that. You can access services without authorization, but you're not stealing anything. You can access services you don't have authorization to access and then disrupt people who are authorized to use those services. But, again, not stealing. Just disruption.
Stealing deprives a person of something, copyright infringement and unauthorized access to services don't.
You can't really "steal" services, even though they sometimes call it that.
If you hire me to paint your portrait and then don't pay me you have stolen my labour. I have given my time and effort and have not been reimbursed for it.
If you paid me and then gave your neighbour a copy of your portrait then you have not stolen my labour.
I don’t know if any freelancer who has not been paid for their work will agree with you
So salary theft by employers is not really theft. Got it.
So if someone creates a piece of art and I take a photo of it and sell the photo, or create prints of it, or even just give it give that photo to lots of people, what is that?
I guess you can't steal anything when you just decide to limit the definition of the word.
But if we're in reality and using the way words are actually defined then yes you can steal something intangible, and no it does not require someone to be deprived of something.
I buy water, I own it. It just passes Thur my body or shower and pipes. That's like saying you don't own your tires as they wear away. You can own consumables. I get your underlying point about theft is more then taking away something. You could be depriving someone of money they would have made. Same with copyright theft. Someone buys your product and copies it then sells it. They didn't steal from you directly but still caused harm. Piracy is a service issue, if things you buy on that service don't work people will stop using that service. I'm not going to download 12 game launchers to play the games I want, I'll stick with steam. Same way with tv/movies.
"muddy waters" is a saying, I don't think you should take OP literally. The Rest you've written seems to agree with their sentiment btw.
Copyright infringement causes less harm than the copyright itself. Piracy causes less harm than the cruelty and greed in production and distribution of mainstream media. Less harm is caused by theft than by a system that willfully starves the public and vaults away excess to drive demand and market price.
No artists should go hungry but then no non-artist should either. And yet in our system artists are enslaved and had their work taken from them so that enterprisers can live in luxury while the rest of us toil, undernourished.
Same with copyright theft
Is this when you steal someone's copyright and collect licensing fees posing as the legitimate copyright holder?
They didn’t steal from you directly
Or indirectly.
still caused harm.
Maybe, maybe not. But no theft occurred.
Look at the shit sony is apparently intending to do. Total bullshit.
Damn, just say stealing. Thought we were pirates. Not cowards
It's not theft though. When you steal something you deprive someone else of it.
It's just copyright infringement. Since copyright is an artificial temporary monopoly granted by the government, it's pretty different from "theft".
We're sharing.
Like Robin Hood, but in a pirate ship.
I call my Plex server Whydah Gally.
Yarr we be murdering the media, just call it murder me matey.
The media corporations in their greed and cruelty have long earned violent reprisal and deserve to be sacked.
Pirating their content is comparatively petty.
But better still is to not pirate their content and let it remain unseen and forgotten.
The reward for creators and artists is to become a part of culture. The promise of riches is a false, capitalist dream.
Aye aye
Property is theft. Possession is alright.
You shouldn't be denied the stuff you actually use. But people definetly should not be allowed to hoard all the water in the world for themselves.
ASK YOURSELF how did they come to be in possesion of the land of the world?
at some point the entire planet was the commons. With WHAT right did they carve it up and claim it is theres for all eternety?
Just because you weren't born at the right time you should be denied the use of the world as everybody else? first come first serve basis? how when it isnt yours to decide over.
the people who carved up the world and put their flags in it, and then put fences around anything so that we may never use it and are condemned to sit idly by have robbed all of us of our fair share.
the world is still belonging to the commons.
Nobody owns the air or the moon but only because the moon is out of reach and the air can't be fenced off otherwise you would have to pay for tides and every breath you take. think about that.
Rethorical question: why didn't property rights matter when the spanish went to south and middle america? why didn't they matter when north america was lifted off of the original owners? but now if you take some guys land in the same exact area suddenly property rights matter?
so basically you can go around stealing off of everybody in the world but if somebody steals a lighter or pen off of you they go to jail? make it make sense...
Would you rather everyone can just walk into your house and take whatever they want? I for one am quite happy with the rules and morals we keep.
Those flags put up are often there to keep different cultures with different rules apart. It's not as easy as erasing borders to have a free world. People are too selfish for that.
Sure, governments still steal all the time. Things are definitely not perfect, but that's not related to someone stealing your lighter.
Possession is what you literally currently use, I am talking about property things that you do not currently use but still decide over. So the house you live in is in your possession (and also your property) but the 100 others you own are in your property not in your possession.
So nobody should ever be able to take the car you use even if yours is better than mine, or even if i dont have one. But nobody should be able to keep people from using anything they dont use themselves.
does that make sense?
regading selfishness - well currently they are, you are right, I would agree with you there
However just like a tiger in a small cage in a zoo does show unusual behaviour that deviates from its healthy behaviour in the wild. So do we humans under the conditions of lack of freedom show behaviour that is dysfunctional that would not be displayed would we live under freedom. Selfishness at least in that sense is a consequnce of our current conditions. However I do not believe human beings have to be angles before we can stop fencing of most of the world to most of the people.
Tell me about it. Some dudes wife "I'm taking extremism to the max because my period tells me to"
Well played!
It makes perfect sense, and I agree 100% with this statement. 👍
Things got weird when we went digital.
Recording from free to air is legal because of the "time shifting" argument. The show is being broadcast regardless, just because it's at an inconvenient time for you doesn't mean you should have to miss it. It's also worth noting that media producers fought tooth and nail against this.
Piracy is just reverse time shifting. It’s going to be on FTA TV at some point, I’m just making it more convenient to watch now.
I don't subscribe to the logic but I guess a part of it can be the lossless factor. Quality of pirated digital content is exactly like the original. If you tape something it usually loses quality. So people seem to care less about that kind of piracy. Which is stupid since going for lossy compressed pirated videos is allegedly not less wrong in the face of law.
Let's get crazier.
Our current favorite show is Bob's Burgers, it's a comfort show we fall asleep to. Prior to signing up with real debrid I got tagged for downloading a 2 year old episode.
We pay for Hulu. We pay for YoutubeTV. We have a working OTA antenna (for when the internet goes out).
My math says I have 3 licenses, yet still illegal to download?
Remember that there were also big campaigns against tape recorders and VCR. They even managed to get VCR vendors to implement a feature that prevents users from skipping ads. So it's not like it's simply legal, the media corps were just not as successful in their lobbying as they are today.
I can't find anything about VCR's blocking; I did find a bunch saying the opposite.
There were copy protections that prevented a VHS - VHS copy being made of some movies. Easily defeated, but they did exist.
My scenario was recording an Over The Air transmission onto VHS using a VCR; not making a backup copy of a movie you purchased on VHS.
Edit: I do recall a campaign against VHS recording of TV shows, but didn't it ended basically saying "Broadcast public == public domain"?. That actually led to copy protections in VHS tapes.
I don't recall ever having a VCR that prevented skipping ads. Maybe that was a Tivo thing?
In fairness, it was never legal to make thousands of copies of that VHS tape and hand them out en masse. Which is how you're getting it when you download it, from someone doing exactly that.