Decriminalise all drugs
Decriminalise all drugs
220 comments
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I don't agree with decriminalisation. Only full legalization makes sense. Treat addiction as a health issue instead of a justice issue. It's amazing that we're still stuck with the legacy of Nixon era policies, with 50 years of data to say the war on drugs cannot ever be won through prohibition.
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Okay but can we start with decriminalization?
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Honestly, decriminalization is possibly worse a drug war (if only barely). Where legalization creates a regulated environment with research and controls, decriminalization increases the use by individuals without giving a legal way to acquire - which just empowers organized crime to get bigger and sell more.
Pot is a weird magical exception because a lot of individuals started growing for their friends and family. But that wouldn't happen with actual hard drugs.
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I don't think you need legalization to make the decisions necessary to help the health issue, I think you could work that sort of help in with decriminalization as well. However, people will still be using less than safe practices to get said substances without legalization as well, so I do agree it would be the overall better arrangement.
But I do agree with the other commenter, starting with decriminalization is at least a step in the right direction.
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I'm reasonably okay with crack and meth being unavailable at gas stations.
Marijuana has no damn reason to be illegal. Psychedelics are probably okay. Opiates, you can make arguments for. But some drugs are genuinely more trouble than they're ever worth, individually or societally. I'd just like laws to be based on that reality instead of moralized by irrational liars.
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Then the capitalists will start getting people addicted to hard drugs, sold in stores.
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Legalization does not necessarily mean deregulation
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I mean, bold of you to assume they can't do that with presently legal drugs....
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Yeah, but they're doing that already (see: opioid epidemic, pill mills). I'd much rather people be able to buy FDA-regulated drugs from the gas station than from some random guy in a parking lot that scraped the drugs off the bottom of an RV bathtub.
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During the Covid lockdown, when there was nothing better to do, I was watching a court proceeding where a judge was really struggling with this while sentencing a person for possession.
He felt like his hands were tied, and he was essentially forced to sentence a drug user to jail, which doesn't normally work, but he had already tried all of the other remedies allowed to him. And he basically said, "I've seen a few cases where people get clean in jail because they can't get the drugs. I hope this happens for you." The sentence was like a month or two.
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Cold turkey works for a lot of
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I was chatting to a guy who stayed in his room until he was no longer addicted to heroin. He said it was the worst time of his life.
He also said he'd never take heroin again because that's the last thing he wants to do in the world (get clean again). But he said that's what they should do to all heroin addicts, lock then in a room until they are clean and they will never what to do it again, don't give them any drugs to ease their suffering.
Not sure I agree with the guy but I felt it was an interesting view.
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PSA that, while having said profound things about loneliness and addiction as of late, Johann Hari has a long history of plagiarism and making stuff up, and once really strongly implied in a TED Talk that if you have good social support then it can just vanish your opiate withdrawal symptoms
@5:00 https://yewtu.be/watch?v=PY9DcIMGxMs generally just web search this guy
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Vietnam soldiers who were addicted to heroin were able to stop when they came back because it was a different environment. Addiction is usually caused by circumstancely factors rather than actual chemical imbalances that cause them to seek heroin. Like depression would be the root causing heroin addiction not heroin addiction being the root. This means that when those other things are solved the addiction can usually solve itself so I'd say in a lot of cases a good support system could definitely go a long way to solving an addiction. Albeit I don't agree w her other points
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people wouldn't have to steal to feed their habit or overdose on laced shit if you could simply buy a portion over the counter barrier free and fairly priced
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Also, they wouldn't be financing drug criminals and terrorists, but would actually be supporting legitimate small business and pay taxes.
Legalization, regulation, harm reduction. That's the way.
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I would support legalizing drugs that can't be abused, like psychedelics. Try taking acid or shrooms a couple days in a row and it won't have any effect until you take a tolerance break. But coke, opioids, & meth shouldn't be easily accessible to the regular person especially in a store. I don't even think you should be able to buy weed till your 26 and your brain has fully developed.
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So much of overdose etc is not having a regulated dose! Not to mention, I bought coke and it was fentanyl instead. Should have known to test, but learned the hardest lesson.
It’s the one time things don’t go right that you don’t make it back
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If appealing to empathy worked for convincing the rich and lawmakers into helping the poor and miserable, there wouldn't be (...as many) poor and miserable.
They're too busy, uhmmm checks notes* fighting abortion or some insanely and inherently evil shit like that
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Besides those addicted, there are a ton of people who just enjoy drugs, don't suffer any problems from it, and don't do anyone any harm.
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You never hear about those who know how to properly use drugs because they blend in with non drug users. Nit that there are many of those as caffeine is one of the most used drugs anyway.
I smoke weed sometimes. I haven't smoked in almost two years and was given some for free and two nuggets will last me a month because I make a bowl last several days. I use it to sleep or enjoy good more. If I don't have any I don't think about it.
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I too enjoy good more, with or without weed.
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As I've always said, stay in drugs, don't do school and always, always listen to your grandparents!
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Yea but you do hear of a few 20 something year olds who died from "sudden heart attack" "unexpectedly passed"
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Do people keep annual statistics of how many people did suddenly?
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don't suffer any problems from it, and don't do anyone any harm.
This right here is called denile. Nobody rocking some form of white powder is doing so without causing harm somewhere. Sure, maybe that's the case because they are just getting started and their frequency of usage has yet to become problematic, but given time, the white powders will take over. As well, there are a ton of people who
just enjoy drugswill swear up and down that they are in control and don't have a problem, so again, denile.I'm pro decriminalization because it reduces harm but your comment is pure ignorance.
EDIT Just to clarify, my comment is not aimed at weed
EDIT 2 add shrooms to the not so harmful list
EDIT 3 I find it ironic that someone else posted this today: https://lemmy.world/post/7421035
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*denial
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Nobody? You really want to speak in absolutes here? I wasn't just talking about cocaine. I also think cocaine is not a good drug to use, too expensive, too addictive, and not a very helpful experience, just a form of hedonism that in the end is not rewarding. But let's talk about shrooms. I started shrooms on a small dosis to discover my response, if I had a predisposition to psychosis I would have backed of then, but I discovered it was a very healing experience for me. So I became a regular user, I eat shrooms once a month. I lay in my bed, I reflect upon my life and my experiences. I work in a psychiatric hospital and have to deal with a lot of intense stuff, suicide, aggression, etc. The regular consumption of shrooms helps me deal with these things in a proper way. I reflect on what happened and process semi-traumatic experiences that come with the job. It also helps me empathize and reflect on why patients behave the way that they do. It's also just a lot of fun and increases my creativity. Now tell me, how am I hurting anyone?
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... People are shot weekly where I live over spats about weed and money. The southern cartels deal heavily in weed and murder swaths of people over it still. Hell Avocadoes led to hundreds-thousands of deaths in Mexico over the last five years.
Let's not pretend that the drugs that make people money are the ones that fuel deaths.
It's why we need to legalize all drugs, and decriminalize all drugs.
The amount of denial pot smokers have is ridiculous yes, but don't give them an out like they aren't contributing their drop of water into that overflowing bucket.
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I originally posted a response listing my experiences with a variety of drugs, but then I saw you're just calling everyone who disagrees with you a drug user in "denile" so I figure there's really no point, is there? You clearly don't want a discussion unless it's in agreement with you. This is your immovable soapbox and no ones reality is gonna change your ignorant stance. So enjoy yelling at the clouds I guess.
Also, it is denial. It's not spelled like the dad joke. "Why didn't the Egyptian know he was drowning?" "He was in De-Nile"
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Isn't there also a chemical element to it that makes trying to get a heroin-addict to go cold turkey kinda like shaming a diabetic for using insulin?
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Yes. The withdrawal symptoms are real and physical.
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I have a nerve disorder and the original neurologist kept trying different opiates on me (they didn't work). I never got mentally addicted, but there must have been some physical addiction because I definitely had withdrawal symptoms when I switched to another type of medication and it was not a pleasant few days. I can't imagine what it must be like for people with serious heroin or fentanyl addictions.
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Probably about the same. They they take low doses usually, only a a subset of users go on to take heroic doses and or IV. That's what makes it so dangerous, you are yo-yoing dosage trying to find that sweet spot, all it takes is one too large of a dose with a few drinks and you are night night forever, or choke on your own spit or vomit.
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"I eat because I'm unhappy. I'm unhappy because I eat." - fat bastard from Austin powers.
Also me.
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This is anecdotal, but I think it's a good qualitative example. When I was marginally employed I was routinely drinking, smoking, and getting high. Well as routinely as I could afford. Even when I was homeless, first thing I did when I scored $40 for a day's work was go and buy a tallboy and a pack of cigarettes.
Fast forward, and now I have a fancy WFH job with good bennies and a future, and I no longer drink, smoke, or do drugs. Part of that is age, but it's not like I didn't want to quit those things. It's just that it got easier when life got more relaxing, and I could just chill out rather than try to escape.
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It's not necessarily your life, but your mind. You could be living in objectively sweet circumstances, but coping with past traumas via addiction. The problem is that by trying to hide from your problems, they just get worse and bigger, which turns into a self-reinforcing cycle of addiction. Breaking that cycle takes an extreme amount of courage and sustained determination.
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Just gotta keep feeling the pain, even though you’ve got the means to end it right there. You have to be willing and able to deal with whatever it is that makes you recoil and reach for the pipe whenever it enters your mind.
I’ve had a few days where I decided to stay sober and I just spend hours and hours thinking about all the mistakes I’ve made and how I can’t unmake them and how twisted up my social responses are and then there’s calculation about whether to kill myself and I’m like “fuck this” and grab the pipe, and then I just feel comfortable, and play some video games, and fuck around on reddit, and eat a huge amount of food to make me pass out.
At work it’s not so bad because Im always busy but at home it’s either high or hell of my own making.
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Aye
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Author of this tweet (I dunno maybe it is copypasta) is a trip.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari
Example: Hari is gay. He wrote an article claiming he had sex with men who were members of homophobic far-right and Islamist groups, stating that with drugs and "a lot of flattery" he "coaxed" a nineteen year old Muslim into "wild gay sex.
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One of the best books I've read on drugs is by him. If you read Chasing the Scream you'll truly understand this post.
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I'd agree but feel the need to highlight a difference between chemical addiction and addiction for the sake of escapism. Though both can absolutely be present at the same time. I am neither a psychologist or neurologist, but have some experience. I've largely dealt with addiction in the forms of self harm, as well as an addiction to sugar.
Self harm absolutely was about escapism. And the addiction was not chemical other than the brain creating a need for it in order to soothe negative thoughts and feelings (anxiety, trauma, stress, sadness etc...).
Sugar on the other hand was a mix of escapism and chemical addiction. When I felt worse I naturally craved more sugar. But even when I felt glad or elated I would still crave it.
I can't speak on addiction to drugs like heroin, opiates, cocaine, among others. But in my experience of addiction to self harm and sugar. Punishment would only end up deepening the addiction as I sought to escape the punishment through addiction as well. Even if that punishment was self-inflicted.
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I appreciate your response and hope you're well.
The language keeps evolving, but this is also described as the difference between substance use/abuse/dependance. Anyone that falls into any of those categories could identify as having an addiction, but each have different issues to be addressed when seeking recovery.
I've worked in substance use disorder treatment and have some challenges of my own but anecdotally, I think the starting point is almost always escapism whether it's the persons circumstances or mental health. Occasionally it's living a certain lifestyle or use being normalized by key people in a person's life. Dependence comes later, and adds extra layers of things to overcome, as you described.
IMO one of the worst aspects of the punishment is when people who are in the stages of use/abuse are punished (whether criminally or otherwise), and after the punishment their circumstances are even worse.
Those who weren't dependent before are headed right into the revolving door of hospitalization, jail, rehab, outpatient so on and so on.
We should do better.
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IMO the chemical addiction just acts as a mechanism to enact the escapism. Like with a cigarette I could shake my brain like an etch a sketch, switching to a new mental scene, by blasting it with dopamine.
Also, when I was out of cigarettes I had a mission: get cigarettes.
That chemical dependency thing just adds a new magnet to the mental filings so they align less along the lines of feeling bad about my life.
A drug habit is like a video game for your emotions. You assign yourself this arbitrary quest, and a whole set of missions and adventures come out of it, and it kills the time.
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Glad someone points out the difference! I did not have to deal with psychological addiction, but during military I developed a (luckily mild) physical/chemical addiction to alcohol.
I did not notice during service. But when i was out, i noticed my body craving for it. This could take many forms like sleeplessness or general physical unsettling. In my experience the physical addiction is less about external pain, but the body giving you pain if it is missing that substance, it got too much used to.
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I had a traumatizing amount of pain once. I mean it fried me from the inside and I screamed for three days. Doctors wouldn’t help because they figured I was faking it to get high. Not continual screaming, but screaming for a couple hours at a go, maybe five times a day. And I don’t mean yelling and begging I mean screaming. No words, just incoherent, uncontrollable vocalization from the level of pain.
When I came out of that I was fucking fried. The slightest hiccup in my routine would send me into a panic attack. Any exercise would send me into an anxious state for like a week, full of insomnia, symptoms sort of like dehydration despite me being hydrated, super tense muscles, headaches, foggy mind, irritable as all hell.
It was the worst in the few days after this pain ended. It’s now been four years and I’m like 80% recovered. I still can’t do a heavy workout without re-activating the insomnia, the muscle tension, the anxiety and feeling close to overwhelm. Basically if I do a heavy workout the adrenaline spikes and just stays up and my heart rate doesn’t come down it’s bad.
But not nearly as bad as it was the first few days. Like I’ll give an example. I made a pair of waffles in the toaster. No clean fork. There was a dirty fork in the living room that I could grab and clean. But I’d have to soak it. Meanwhile the waffle’s getting cold.
Panic attack. That situation sent me cowering against the wall on the kitchen floor, crying and wincing and trying to unwind but unable to.
Later that particular day, I went for a drink with my friend. And — I’ve never done this before — when I ordered my beer I just said “and a shot of vodka”, just the cheapest they had. I downed that shot then brought the beer back to my table.
And boy, when that vodka warmth was spreading into my chest, it was the most perfect thing for those nerves I had.
It made me realize why certain guys look at booze that way. I realized that if a guy’s got those nerves, from wherever it is he’s been, he experiences alcohol in a totally different way.
It was like watching a hot water hose melt the ice off a windshield, the way that vodka cut through it all. Just perfect. Don’t know how else to describe it.
It’s not like that any more, at least on a daily basis.
I hope you’ve found a place that makes you feel safe and cozy here.
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Or, hear me out, help those consuming them get out of that addiction and crush those who prey on them by selling drugs. They are the actual evil ones here.
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On the one hand, you’re right. However, I would say most societies have already drawn that conclusion and have attempted to do what you say we should do. Can you think of any place that has been successful? Certainly not the US.
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The US hasn't succeeded because they haven't really done shit. They will help people detox if they have insurance, or people can go to a state-run facility, which in most cases are horribly depressing jail-like environments. In those places they sell you the cure, which is a program developed by a guy in the 1930s based on an evangelical Christian program for sobriety. I'm sure you can guess but this program requires a belief in God to become sober and live a fulfilling life. You might hear about so called amazing treatment facilities but those places cost thousands of dollars a day, push the same "cure", and good luck getting insurance to pay for it.
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Portugal
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Legalize them. Consistent supply means clear perception of the situation, control over dosing.
To heal from trauma a person must willingly face the thing that traumatized them. Unwilling encounter only deepens the trauma. If a person is addicted because reality has traumatized them, forcing them back against it doesn’t help. They need to have control, and it has to be their own choice to stop.
With a legal market, a person could ramp themselves down off heroin by reducing their dose 1% per day. They can fiddle with it, roll it around in their fingers, poke and prod at their habit and take it apart.
When supply is sporadic, the instinct that develops is to always be drawn, to always say yes. When supply is sporadic it mixes the thrill of the hunt with the drug. You score just by getting some, and you celebrate the win by taking it.
It’s a whole thing that doesn’t exist when you can always walk down the street to the 7-Eleven and grab a six pack of Horse Girls with your reese’s peanut butter cups and gatorade, and pop a couple of them while you watch the game.
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war on drugs is a jobs program for prison employees with minimal education requirements. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4L20t8Dvlg
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I get the sentiment, then after thinking about it 10 seconds, I thought "hold on, what about all the CEOs that snort cocaine on top of naked women? Is their life painful, too?"
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Because they aren't addicted? They're mostly social/opportunistic users of recreational drugs
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Those types are likely desperate to believe that they're living gods that are better than anyone else, and snorting cocaine on top of naked women supports that fantasy. So one could say they are escaping the painful reality that they are just another insecure selfish douche bag.
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At the risk of controversy-- and spoken as a ten year addict now clean for 25 years... I did not feel the motivation to get clean until I was made to fear the consequences of my own vile self centeredness, selfishness, and pain I was causing others and others in my own life. The stern judicial system played a strong role in helping me wake up.
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This is a nice sentiment and everything, but for anyone who is all in on this guy I would recommend reading his book and getting to the "personal responsibility" part.
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Say more…
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Damn
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At the risk of controversy-- and spoken as a ten year addict now clean for 25 years... I did not feel the motivation to get clean until I was made to fear the consequences of my own vile self centeredness, selfishness, and pain I was causing others and others in my own life. The stern judicial system played a strong role in helping me wake up.
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I agree. I'm Abrahamic communist and drugs are harmful to the working class.
I want to be clear that I support heavy deescalating the crusade on drugs. I also support decriminalization for use of drugs, but there should still be legal consequences like forced rehab.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP15q815Saw 3 Arguments Why Marijuana Should Stay Illegal Reviewed - By Kurzgesagt
I've never used drugs and I hope I never will.
I would hope that legalizing drugs would make drugs cleaner to use (take the impurities away), the governments provide better health care around drugs and the problems they cause, benefit the good (medical) properties of drugs and help out people who use them instead of throwing them behind bars, giving them a chance to overcome their challenges and to even become a working part of the community and the country.
I know that one argument is about criminal activities involved in creating drugs and that they could grow if drugs were legalized. If they really grew in power through legalizing drugs, I don't know, what would be the best course of action.
I think it would be crucial to add resources in research about drugs. How do they affect their users and how to help making their every-day life better.
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I've never used drugs and I hope I never will.
No caffeine, alcohol, or medicine?
Everyone uses drugs. Some are just illegal, for one reason or another. Usually (almost always) it's political. There's mostly nothing wrong with "drugs" but there are problems with abuse. Some drugs are also highly addictive and easily lead into abuse. We need methods in place to help people stop using drugs if they need help and better resources for preventing abuse.
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Well, caffeine as in Coca Cola, but not often (more often when served than bought myself). No alcohol. Medicine, I think 99% of the time it's Ibuprofen and that also is not often.
Abuse is one problem, yes. It's worth mentioning though that not everyone approves even small doses of illegal drug use - no matter was it completely harmless to the user or not.
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Why would they grow? Black markets appear and grow in the presence of prohibition and in the absence of regulation, not the other way around. For decades there has been no black market in most countries for alcohol and tobacco because it's trivial to buy high quality versions cheaply.
I've never met a drug user that enjoyed interacting with drug dealers.
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Companies that produce legal drugs grow in economic power and political influence but they don't act like criminal gangs. At worst you get something like Purdue Pharma. Mostly you get companies like Inbev and Anheuser Busch.
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Well you missed out, too bad.
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So you're saying anyone who uses drugs recreationally should be in rehab? You seem quite confident, but I'm wondering if you forgot to think before you wrote this?
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I’m not really sold on that. Drug addicts are victims and shouldn’t be penalized but drug dealers definitely deserve jail.
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In most of the world people who sell weed are "drug dealers"; are you including them as well?
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I never met a junkie that didn't also sell at least a bit to help pay for the habit. I get what you mean, some dealers/orgs are obviously bad people and often these aren't even addicts at all to their own product, but where do you draw the line.
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That’s why I think it’s a difficult thing to handle.
My opinion would be something like this (though it’s probably very flawed as I just thought of it on the spot and I’m not extremely knowledgeable on the subject):
Are you positive to a drug test? Are you willing to cooperate on where did you get them?
Yes-Yes: Confiscation and advice to go to a rehab center
Yes-No: Confiscation and advice to go to a rehab center unless it’s a repeat offense, in that case I’d force the rehab center
No-Yes: Just confiscation
No-No: I’m assuming you’re the dealer, jail
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Meh. I'm pretty happy, just get bored and like to drink when the opportunity presents itself. I can go a week perfectly happy sober if I'm on travel or a busy week. But if it's Friday night and the wife doesn't have the night off you bet I'm drinking playing games.
There are very very different types of substance abuse. Not everyone is depressed.
Availability is definitely a concern. I'm not out looking for k at 2am. But you better believe it it was available at 711 I'd do it a while lot more.
There is a middle ground somewhere that is empathetic but realistic.
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Escapism, like how they escaped with my catalytic converter.
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no that is capitalism
the invisible hand of the market is taking them because used second hand catalytic converters are really valuable.
they are entrepreneurs! try buying security equipment and buying online cameras and paying for bandwidth like a good capitalist until you can rent your side house to a cop aka be a vassal
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I believe the core of addiction is the culmination of many bad choices and no sense of personal responsibility. It's something the addict did to themselves. They need to own it and not point fingers or try to justify.
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Ah yes, the conservative position about literally everything.
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That's a wordy way of saying common sense.
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Do people with PTSD who end up self-medicating because they can't find another thing that helps them need to 'own it and not point fingers,' or can the fact that they were in a war or raped regularly by a family member or whatever caused their PTSD be a big part of the issue? Do people with severe mental illness lack personal responsibility? Maybe. But they aren't going to gain it either what with being severely mentally ill.
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You are talking about an extremely extremely small percentage of addicts. The vast majority do not come from any situation you mentioned. I stand by what I said.
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220 comments
Yup. It's escapism. Anything to not have to be myself, even if for just a very short while.
A lot of people are in denial about how often they engage in escapism. Whether it's alcohol, binge watching, reading, gaming, porn or their phone.
Personally I swapped drugs for podcasts, audiobooks, and audio dramas (shout out to BBC sounds). Helps drown out all the negative thoughts.
Not sure if that's a good idea either, tbh. But I'm still here, so maybe that's something.
Hope you're able to get in a better place so you feel less need to escape from life. Not happy, happiness is overrated. But just that you want to live, experience your life, and what happens next.
This is why ADHD is so hard to diagnose and treat in adults. You have found your coping mechanisms, it’s never about escapism or denial.
I just want to add a plus one for audio dramas, if which the BBC has some great ones, especially some old horror series. Sure, it’s not exactly a replacement, but every little bit helps. I’ve been clean of anything not proscribed for about six months!