2y ago

'There's a powerful argument' Trump is disqualified for presidency under 14th Amendment: Kaine

abcnews.go.com /Politics/powerful-argument-trump-disqualified-presidency-14th-amendment-kaine/story

Democratic Sen. Tim Kaine of Virginia on Sunday said that he believes a strong legal argument can be made to use the 14th Amendment to remove former President Donald Trump from the ballot in 2024, citing Trump's actions related to the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.

Shortly after Jan. 6, Trump was impeached by the House of Representatives for inciting an insurrection amid his push to overturn his election loss, with 10 Republicans and all Democrats voting to impeach him.

He denied any wrongdoing, and while seven members of his own party joined Democrats to support his conviction, he was ultimately acquitted by the Senate.

53 comments

I want to preface this by saying I think he is absolutely guilty and should suffer the maximum consequences for it. BUT- I do not like the precedent of not allowing someone on the ballot if they have been indicted but not found guilty or innocent yet. This could apply to all sorts of politicians that people want to conveniently get out of the way. I think it's a bad idea.
Now- when, and I am certain it will be a when at this point, he is found guilty, please do bar him from office.
- 14A S3 is not about punishment for a crime. It is about disqualification from office for a specfied condition, exactly in the same way that people who are under the age of 35 years (the condition) are disaqualified from the office of President. People who, having previously taken an oath to uphold the Constitution for the office they held, and then having engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or having given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof (the condition), are disqualified from office.
  The condition described in 14A S3 may also be a criminal matter, but that is a wholly separate concern.
  
  Great, again, what's to stop a Republican in a red state from indicting someone who was, for example, at a Black Lives Matter protest for insurrection because they want to bar them from office? Because that is the precedent being set if you don't wait for a verdict.
  
  and then having engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or having given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof (the condition), are disqualified from office.
  the rub is that the 14S2 provides for due process. until he's convicted in court there will always be a question if that really was an insurrection, in the minds of his supporters.
  Flying Squid is absolutely right in that the republicans will retaliate with nonesense charges. (in fact, they already are.)
  
  You’re clearly not reading the post, you replied to. He has been charged but not proven guilty, yet.
- It's not a precedent. The entire reason Amendment 14 is there is because they needed something broad after the Civil War happened. They needed wording that would apply to all of the people who had been on the other side in the Civil War even without convictions. Applying the same standard to Trump is just treating him like they treated all of the people in the past who were elected officials who took up arms against the country or gave aid and comfort to those who did.
  
  What's to stop them from indicting a Democratic candidate for office, be it anything from president or senator to dog catcher in a red state and then using this to deny their candidacy as revenge for Trump if this happened? Because that's exactly what they would do. And do it as often as possible. If it doesn't matter if the indictment leads to a not guilty verdict, you can just indict them for some bullshit charge and not worry about the fact that you know they'll get off.
- Good points. If he is in prison, he would get 25thd until he got out. So the election will be between Biden and Trump's running mate
- Comforting an insurrectionist isn't really a crime in and of itself, however, it is a disqualifier for holding office.
- The process to do so via political action was via impeachment and removal from office.
  But they fucked that one up. So here we are.
  I also agree with you it should carry a guilty verdict of some suitable crime, because other precedents would be ripe for abuse.
- This is a very reasonable response. It's a very difficult issue to work through, and hopefully this all shakes out in a way that doesn't create a terrible precedent, but still puts the correct traitors in jail.
I think declaring that if he's reelected he would lock up his political enemies should be automatic disqualification.
- Not to the American voter it's not
  
  i hate to say it...and i am not implying the intent matches reality but this is...sort of...the intent of the electoral college.
I'm sick of articles saying things like "a case could be made". Just fucking do it already. Someone needs to start suing to to get Trump off the ballot and not just talk about it.
- actually...a lot of people need to do something. which is the purpose behind talking about it first. getting support and consensus for possibly making a case can lead to cases actually being made. it's not like on TV where the district attourney of america walks up to the judge of america and convicts him. educating people why there are arguments and convincing them they are powerful don't happen overnight.
- A lawsuit isn't required, if the state election officials do the right thing.
  An insurrectionist is an ineligible candidate for US president, just like a non-citizen or someone who's not 35 yet. The states merely need to follow that existing law, just as they would do if a teenager named Pierre from Paris filed to run for US president. They wouldn't have to be sued to say no; and Pierre wouldn't have to be convicted of anything — they'd just say no, he's not eligible, he doesn't get listed on the ballot.
  Trump is not eligible, just as Pierre is not eligible. Trump's ineligibility rests on his own actions rather than his age or nationality. But all of those are (dis)qualifications spelled out in the Constitution; they're not civil or criminal penalties from a court. It's the job of election officials to enforce them, and a lawsuit only makes sense if they fail to do their job correctly in the first place.
  
  I suppose a lawsuit isn't required until the appropriate election official announces a decision, but Trump & co will definitely contest it if he's not going to be on the ballot, and I really hope someone will contest it if he is.
- So much this. It feels like 2015-2016 all over again and I'm so sick of it already.
Republicans will fight it tooth and nail. They don’t actually care about the law unless they can manipulate it to benefit them in some way.
- Let them fight it; it is their right to do so, in the courts. That is where legal disputes are adjudicated. It would be appropriate for courts, if so requested, to determine as a finding of fact, whether the Jan 6 invasion of the US Capitol for the purposes of preventing legal federal business is an "insurrection" (NM already decided that it was), and whether the actions of a given person rise to the level of "participation," or "giving aid or comfort to the enemies of the United States."
  The answers to the above are ones that it would be good for the judicial system to rule on, no matter what answer(s) come out of such hearings. The sooner we get to that point, the better.
- That's true but in this case, the republicans in power would like nothing more than to have him gone. The best way that could play out for them is this but blame the Democrats for it after it's done.
I don’t think Republican voters care.
I mean, its the literal text of the constitution, plain as day. Watching people in "shall not be infringed" t shirts try to backpedal is gonna be fun, but they're conservatives so they'll figure out a way the law doesn't apply to them just like how they carve out an exception for their pornographic bibles in the obscenity laws they write.
- I mean, they're perfectly willing to ignore parts of the constitution coughwell-regulatedcough
  
  Once again, just like the Bible
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/05/trump-terminate-constitution-00072230
Shouldn't this be enough? He quite literally claims the constitution needs to be terminated.
Doesn't matter. Trump's SCOTUS would never interpret it like that.
- For real. You could have the best argument in the world, and Thomas etc al will just say, "No"

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