If Trump wins the election thru fraud how can the democrats refute it and prove they won? Or will it just be like another Jan 6 and four years of whining like Trump?
I believe the goal and intent is to get enough results into question that they kick it into Mike Johnson's hands - and that mfer has almost no history at all. No bank account, nothing. He'll do the thing, it'll be contested, it'll go to supreme court, where -- surprise surprise, they'll rule in favor of Donald J Trump and he will be elected our new Dictator. At which point he'll be sworn in, because - Dems have never had any backbone - and then he'll proceed to gut every institution which questions him, and turn this nation into an autocracy.
What people don't realize yet, is that the election doesn't matter unless Kamala wins by such a large margin that they can't pull this off. They require the veil of uncertainty for this all to work. But since we're on razor-thin margins, it's going to happen anyways.
We're already boned, and nobody realizes it yet. The playbook is out in the open and the media has stopped calling this out. They're complicit in it, because they think the leopards won't eat their face too. So they're cozying up early.
Bonus: I believe they'll be doing something wild with Vance as well - probably temporarily making him president, while he pardons Trump for any past crimes, and then giving the presidency back to Trump.
Hmm, we learned in 2022 that the House can't do anything until a Speaker is installed. And the new Congress is seated a few days before the EC votes are counted. What if Kamala wins the election, but the House declines to elect a Speaker? Can they even convene to count the votes? I hope so, since the VP president over the counting of votes, not the Speaker.
Still, a Kamala win will be a lot more bullet-proof it it comes with a Democratic House and Senate, too. Then there is far less that Mike can do to fuck it up.
There is still something the American People can do in such an undemocratic maneuver. Its the single action that we've built all of this bureaucracy to avoid. But the SC should never decide the president in a Democracy and neither should the Speaker. It should be counted until the counting is done, thats it. I will be razing hell the moment they try to remove our own agency and place it into the hands of their cronies. I've got a megaphone ready and all the PTO in the world.
Edit: raising, not raze. I'd rather not make it worse.
Only point of dispute is if she wins by a large margin they’ll just say the only way someone can win by such a large gap is through fraud.
So you just riding the wave, heading for the hills? Sounds like you are convinced this will happen, not arguing that it won't. If this is your reality right now, curious what that means, if anything, for your day to day life at the moment? Extra locks on door? Stockpiling ammo? Or do you think it will be more of a slow professional "business" fascism as we all continue to boil in the pot?
Genuinely curious what the folks who are 100% convinced today that we're beyond fucked and society is crumbling in two weeks either way, are doing at this moment (when they can still "prepare" mentally, financially, etc.)
I know enough history to see where this is headed. I hope it won't be an immediate firestorm, and I feel as if there are a lot of people in a lot of high up places that won't just let Cheeto-man arbitrarily take control like he wants. So it won't be an overnight thing. I already stockpile ammo, Republicans don't have a monopoly on gun rights, thankfully. If I gotta skedaddle, I have both a place in Canada I can stay, and a place over in the UK temporarily. I'm, unfortunately surrounded by these imbiciles - but I keep my head down enough that most of them think I'm one too. Family already has their passports sorted.
Germany wasn't an overnight thing either. It'll start with rounding up political rivals and immigrants into camps. If that comes to pass, that's my litmus test for getting the fuck out of dodge.
IMO, the U.S. will become similar to Russia. It's not some sudden societal collapse scenario; just an oligarchy with high levels of corruption and incompetence. Most people will conform or keep their heads down to avoid the consequences of stepping out of line. If you're in a possibly targeted group, you may want a valid passport though. And it's always been a good idea to keep at least a months worth of non-perishable food on hand in case of supply chain disruptions. Possibly stuff like emergency propane heaters and a propane tank could be useful too (they've been useful for me in the past already without an authoritarian government or social unrest). Knowing your neighbors and helping eachother out in little ways is probably the most powerful thing though.
The scary thing about elections is that, by design, nobody can ever "prove" they won.
Votes are designed to be anonymous. They have to be. If they're not, they're very vulnerable to manipulation. If someone can prove how they voted, then they can either be bribed to vote a certain way, or threatened to vote a certain way. If you can check that your vote was counted successfully for the candidate you chose, then someone else can check that you voted for the candidate they chose.
That means that, by design, the only security that elections can have is in the process. In a small election, like 1000ish votes or fewer, someone could supervise the whole thing. They could cast their vote, then stand there and watch. They could watch as other people voted, making sure that nobody voted twice, or dropped more than one sheet into the box. They could watch as the box was emptied. Then, they could watch as each vote was tallied. Barring some sleight-of-hand, in a small election like that, you could theoretically supervise the entire process, and convince yourself that the vote was fair.
But, that is impossible to scale. Even for 1000 votes, not every voter could supervise the entire process, and for more than 1000 votes, or votes involving more than one voting location, it's just not possible for one person to watch the entire thing. So, at some point you need to trust other people. If you're talking say 10,000 votes, maybe you have 10 people you trust beyond a shadow of a doubt, and each one of you could supervise one process. But, the bigger the election, the more impossible it is to have actual people you know and trust supervising everything.
In a huge country-wide election, there's simply no alternative to trust. You have to trust poll workers you've never met, and/or election monitors you've never met. And, since you're not likely to hear directly from poll workers or election monitors, you have to instead trust the news source you're using that reports on the election. In a big, complex election, a statistician may be able to spot fraud based on all the information available. But, if you're not that statistician, you have to trust them, and even if you are that statistician, you have to trust that your model is correct and that the data you're feeding it is correct.
Society is built on trust, and voting is no different. Unfortunately, in the US, trust is breaking down, and without trust, it's just a matter of which narrative seems the most "truthy" to you.
This makes me think we are on the same path as many countries who routinely have significant civil conflict every election cycle.
Not a great look for a country. Not a great group to join. Yet here we are.
In France we get an anonymous code and we can plug it into a website and it tells us if our ballot was counted or not, and if it wasn’t counted why. (markings on ballott, multiple candidates selected for one spot, etc.)
Right, but no way to verify who you voted for.
And, you have to trust that the website is telling you the truth. You have no way of verifying that it always gives the same answer to everybody. I guess someone could test that there's some connection to their real ballot by intentionally screwing up their ballot. But, that doesn't mean that there's any way to prove that when it's counted that the actual tally for the person / people you voted for are going up not down.
They can tell who votes. Your entire premise is based on a belief that votes are anonymous. They aren't. They are pretected from the public. If you have ever worked in election, which I have, you would know that. You have to cross reference if someone voted twice, are alive, or even registered in the county they voted in. There are computers that verify electronic bullets and there are batch audits. No one is ever allowed to be alone even with one ballet. Everything is done in a team. If your partner calls in sick, you're the third wheel to another team.
Just because the public doesn't know doesn't mean the government doesn't know.
Votes are anonymous. You can tell who voted, but not what they voted for. It's crucial for the fairness of elections that a vote cannot be definitively connected to the individual who cast it; if you could, you could coerce or retaliate.
And all of the things you mention are the trust OP is talking about. You were a trusted person in that situation. The process increases and validates trust.
That’s basically what was being said and it’s not functionally different because the vast majority of the public does not work in elections or their verification. In essence if 99% of the population does not have access to data or cannot interpret said data, trust is needed.
Oh man are you confused. For everyone else this person doesnt know how voting works.
Voting in the states is 100% anonymous across the board. The data trail stops after a person is signed in at the polls. There is zero information on a ballot to identify you.
If we're saying "Trump won" what do we mean? The election is certified and he gets to be sworn in? If that's the case then there is absolutely nothing that can be done. We'll have PBS and 60 minutes stories about what happened and we'll just have to suffer the reality that they got what they wanted.
If he claims to have won on Tuesday, but the results aren't in completely then there is room to argue. It would just be bluster, it wouldn't be officially recognized as a victory. When he does that it will be to ensure he can cry foul if the final results don't go his way. He 100000000% will be doing this.
I have just watched the Legal Eagle video about the various law-related things that happened around the 2020 election.
It served as a reminder that the plan had apparently been to claim to have won before all the votes were counted - something about doing so in the interim between two sets of votes being counted (I want to say mail-in versus in-person, but I might have misunderstood) and then act as if Trump had actually won at that point, thus giving legitimacy to any later cry of foul that was almost sure to be needed.
Which is precisely what Trump did.
... my point being that it would be foolish to assume it wasn't in the play book for this time around as well.
What I'm interested in seeing is if fox news will be willing to cast off any remaining semblance of fairness in favor of calling the election for him as well.
Remember Bush v Gore?
Just like that.
Nope, I was 3
Source? First I've heard of anything like this. I'd imagine a lot of things would have to be settled in court given the US's strange laws giving states so much leeway in how they conduct federal elections.
They won't.
It's like MLK said - the white liberal will always prefer "a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice."
That's the whole reason they didn't bat an eyelid when Neo-Nazis and KKK-boys were marching under open police protection back in 2016 but collectively lost their shit when antifa showed up to physically confront them.
This is a dumb question but how do people get in touch with people in Antifa or Qanon because I highly doubt they have like a dedicated website or email?
You don't get in touch with "people in Antifa", because there's no such thing as being "in" Antifa. It's the idea of being against fascism, not a group of people.
qanon is, as the name suggests, anonymous, so you don't contact qanon, qanon posts some dumb shit and you have no real way of identifying whether it was the real dipshit or a fake dipshit. there is no national qanon organization, only cult weirdos looking for secret codes on facebook, who you can talk to, I guess
generally the best way to contact antifa is to form your own group and then talk to them. second best is probably praying that you have a local group that isn't a scam and has a PR side that you can instagram. there is no national or world antifa org; if you're doing antifa shit then you're antifa now
You find antifa by being antifa. Thats its power. Suit up, show up, punch some Nazis, drop some sweet drugs, get laid.
Its a fun a group good people.
Pick one or the other. Antifa and QAnon are polar opposites
It will exactly be a repeat, for sure. It'll be like the new inaugural routine, where a portion of the population will rise up for their murderous conman and try to overthrow a government. So long as he's alive.
It's still funnily ironic how this is the party, the GOP, that told Democrats in 2016 to just "accept it". But when it was their turn to, no, they start an insurrection.
The premise here is that Trump loses but refuses to back down, attempting to forcibly claim victory. If Trump legitimately wins, there is a different path. Then...
Assuming multiple systematic failures occur simultaneously, including any of: actual voter fraud, fraudulent electors, congress refusing to certify, a captured supreme court acting in favour of Trump, or actual insurrection on or before Jan 6th.
I actually expect the US Military to step in. Every member is sworn to uphold the constitution. But if the constitution has been discarded, then I'd expect them to step in to restore it.
Failing that, the US likely fractures and we leave the Republic phase.
I actually expect the US Military to step in. Every member is sworn to uphold the constitution. But if the constitution has been discarded, then I'd expect them to step in to restore it.
Have you met the Oathkeepers?
If shit goes down, assume anyone with a uniform is going to throw in with the authoritarian despot.
See I wouldn't be to sure. There's plenty of left leaning people who would fight to help restore the US. In the armed forces and by in large they have higher positions. Not necessarily higher as in commander positions but just non grunt ones. At least from what I hear from the friends and family I have in the various branches of the armed forces.
You are very confused regarding the rank and file vs. officers.
I mean, Biden has the power to do whatever he wants now and could potentially overturn the results in the interests of national security or whatever. He won't, but it's nice to think that he could do something to avert a fascist takeover. Democrats will take the high-road into letting democracy die.
No, he is only immune for 'official acts' and since it is not defined what is and what is not an official act the Supreme Court would be the one who decides if he is immune. Guess how they would decide anything for Biden or how they would rubber stamp everything for Trump.
The Democrats should have fought the Supreme Court while they had the time. I'm afraid it might be too late now...
depends how close it is and which state acts like shit
If somehow there is fraud, then it won’t be like Jan 6.
If trump wins
He will simply have his detrackters.. Eliminated
Bruh you can't even spell detractors. Cease the political hottakes lol
If Trump wins through fraud Liberals will find a way to blame third party voters and continue to blame them for the next four years, other then that they might complain.
If there is another jan 6th it will be a tragedy.
There will be many more casualties.
The incumbent office won't hesitate to act like Trump did, tactfully. It will be a massacre.
That's all I know.
Through fraud? Are u saying if he wins it will be through fraud?
You don't remember the alternative delegates they attempted to send last time? That's fraud, and there's no reason they won't try it again this time
Yes. Yes we are. On account of the massive amount of fraud that's been coming out of his corner for 8 years and counting.
That Trump is committing voter fraud is a given guarantee, whether it lets him win or not is what's up in question.
How would he win it through fraud? If he wins, he'll win legitimately.
Claiming that it's fraud if he wins is exactly what Trump did in 2020.
You have not heard of the "contested electors" delegates his party attempted to send in place of the actual delegates last time around?
Hey stop thinking for yourself this is not allowed. Thinking for yourself is anti democratic and by using critical thinking you are supporting trump who is literally hitler.
Picking a side that's known to have committed fraud and saying it's legitimate no matter what, is not critical thinking.
Same as happened in 2000, we'll get 8 years of the guy who lost.
We already had four years so technically we would only get another four.
Until SCOTUS says the constitution isn't constitutional and gives him a literal crown.
That's the scary part. They'll gladly approve his term limit extension.
He's been saying that if he wins, nobody will ever need to vote again.
I've been saying this exact same thing. Trump is a raging moron and I fear the intelligent demagogue that follows him more than I fear a second trump presidency (although a second trump term might guarantee the former)
I'd bet any amount of money that within the next few elections a republican will fly a flag with an obscure white supremacist rune on it
I'm hoping it's a painful death, it's already slow as fuck. he's such an ugly person, deep inside.
Don't threaten me with a good time!
And then Jared Kushner touring with Democrats in 2040.