1y ago

'Zionist-free zone': Israelis are increasingly unwanted at global tourism sites

www.haaretz.com

From a hotel in Kyoto to a sandwich joint in Edinburgh, the world is becoming hostile toward Israelis who are learning that a vacation won't shield them from the Gaza war.

During the nine months of war the Israeli tourist experience abroad has been marked by fears of antisemitism and efforts to avoid pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

According to reports by Israeli media and posts online, some of those worries have recently turned real for a number of Israeli tourists.Anecdotal incidents at touristic locations around the world are making it clear that even though there is no official policy of excluding Israelis, that is sometimes the situation on the ground.

An especially bumpy week began on June 17 at the Material Hotel in Kyoto, Japan, when an Israeli named Alex was informed that his reservation had been canceled due to the allegations of Israeli war crimes in Gaza. The Material told Alex that it was "not able to accept reservations from persons we believe might have ties to the Israeli army," as reported by Israeli website Ynet.

The story made the rounds on social media, produced a stern protest letter from Israel's ambassador in Tokyo, and led to a rebuke by the Kyoto municipality that the hotel had breached Japanese business law and must ensure that such a transgression won't happen again.

172 comments

Jews around the word are less safe because of Israel when they were promised the opposite. Their faith has been used as a cover for a land grab and they put your holy symbol on a flag they go to war, and worse, under. It's no wonder so many Jews at least in the US are critical of Israel. It probably feels a lot like being a regular Muslim watching groups commit violence with their religious iconography and warped interpretations used to create 'justification'.
- Anecdotally, I've never met any Jewish people in the US who didn't have strongly negative opinions of the government/state of Israel.
  Some people aren't okay with their holy texts being warped into a cudgel and used to beat down the innocent.
  
  It depends on your particular social circle but 80-85% of Jews are supportive of Israel. Most oppose Netanyahu.
  
  Some people aren't okay with their holy texts being warped into a cudgel and used to beat down the innocent.
  Damn, if that isn't a spot-on description of how I feel about my faith right now.
  My parents don't understand why I stopped going to church, amd when I try to explain why, they say that they're different when they're really not.
  
  There's a very logical filter at play here: if you didn't think seeking beef with Arabs and participating in a colonialist project in the 50s/60s/70s was a good idea, you would have stayed in the US, and otherwise, you would have moved to Israel. This made it so that Jews in the US lean liberal and Jews in Israel lean ethno-nationalistic, in very broad terms.
  
  I notice similar things as well, in that my personal expirences with them, comapred to average US population, US Jews seem to be far more informed on whats happening and far more likely to have at least harsh critisizm for Isreal. Part of why I really hate people conflating the two in order to spread hate.
- A lot like being German in 1949.
- The Star of David is not a Jewish holy symbol, having that would be sacrilege anyway, similar to idolatry. It's not even the Star of David, to be honest.
  At some point Jewish secularists in Europe wanted some symbol for the Jewish identity. They picked one very commonly used in the Middle East, by all peoples and religions.
  By the way, crescent is not a Muslim holy symbol, too, and with the same implication of idolatry. Though they have in practice accepted it, just like Jews. It's the symbol of Constantinople, which Ottomans used in line with their pretense to be heirs of Rome (I mean, if Germans can do that, why not them).
  Many of the Jews around the world have a very idealized idea of Israel and simply can't believe it's bad. See, when you are a member of a demonized (even today) minority, but somewhere is a strong and successful state of your nation that has restored its presence in its cradle 2000 years after being partially wiped out, partially expelled from there, you tend to be irrational.
  Also separation of religion and nation is a Western thing, Jewish religion is about a nation, and, by the way, Muslim religion too states that all Muslims are one nation.
  EDIT: OK, why the downvotes here? Everything here is factual. And if that's the paragraph about 2000 years triggering people - that's a right, yes. The state of Israel sucks, but not the general idea. Same as Sebastia, Malatia, Sis, Sasun, Mush, Van are Armenian till the end of days in my book.
  
  At least the Germans had the Holy Roman Empire. The Ottomans knocked over the Byzantines who actually were the old Eastern Roman Empire. The Ottomans had about as much claim to one of the crowns of Rome as the Netherlands has to the HRE crown.
- "warped interpretations"
  
  It’s like how Christians justify raping kids. The select few Christians who “follow Christ” inherit a bad reputation
- Sounds like you're condoning this behaviour.
  Edit: good old Lemmy, where saying it's bad to hate on people just because of where they're born will get you downvoted to oblivion. You all need to step back and re-examine your views.
  
  It doesn’t say they’re excluding all Jewish people, it says they’re excluding Israelis. You know, people from the country where they all serve in the military, except the most extreme religious extremists (for now anyway), the country actively violating international law in the West Bank and actively committing genocide.
  There are plenty of non-Israeli Jewish people. Non-Zionist Jews are lovely people and should not be excluded.
  This is the same as refusing to do business with apartheid South Africans.
  
  Sounds like you didn’t comprehend their comment.
  
  YES.
  Denizens of an apartheid regime, beneficiaries of a genocide do not get to enjoy tourism abroad. Is that unequivocal enough for you?
  
  Nice awardspeechedit
  You aren't being down voted for saying it's bad to hate on people because they're Jewish or Israeli.
  You're being down voted for espousing a false dichotomy, on par with "if you aren't with us you're against us"
  
  Correct. Citizens of a government that is conducting a genocide ahould not be welcome in other countries.
  
  You can't read. Those are facts and written in a passive voice. Condoning the behavior reads something like: "The state of Israel has sown seeds of ill will nurtured by lies and here comes harvest time" or "Yeah fuckers, get dunked on world stage" or something similar and in-between.
  
  Found the person that wouldn't participate in sanctioning apartheid south Africa.
  
  Sounds like you're butthurt about it.
  OP on the other hand sounds like they were explaining what was happening, simple as that.
It honestly feels like we somehow have to take back the (very loaded) word "antisemitism", as Israel and its supporters seem intent on making it mean "anything the Israeli government disagrees with".
I'm not an antisemite, and have no hate whatsoever for anyone because of theirs religious beliefs or where they come from. My views are antizionist and antigenocide. Which are strictly political views, not tied to any specific demographic of people.
- This has been going on for years though. In the same way that it is not islamophobic to criticize somebody who happens to be Muslim. It is not anti-semitic to criticize somebody who is Jewish. But you try explaining that to Jewish person and you get pushback as if somehow criticizing the military and their government, is the same as criticizing them even though I never even mentioned them.
  According to my parents this argument has been going on since the '60s so I don't think it's going to get resolved anytime soon.
- Definitely a good point, but not very relevant as the article doesn't really touch on antisemitism, but more on blanket rejection of Israeli citizens with no regard for what their opinion may be
  
  That’s because Israel got what they wished for when they adopted Herzl’s idea.
  Herzl said that Jews will never be accepted as truly American or truly French etc. so they need their own country and form their own distinct nation. Well they got it and found out that form of nationalism is outdated and exposes them to these accusations. Israel claims to speak for all Jews, and thus people draw the false conclusion that Jews worldwide collectively support all Israeli policies even the rightwing and criminal ones. The existence of Israel only worsened the accusations that Jews are a fifth column or secretly more loyal to Israel over their own countries.
  It’s actually kinda sad because diaspora Jews are more likely to oppose Netanyahu, and this discrimination is being wielded by Netanyahu to claim they won’t be safe anywhere unless they immigrate to Israel.
- Zionism is the belief the Jewish people deserve a place to call their own, similar to the belief the Italian people deserve a place to call their own. Antizionism is the belief the Jewish people don't deserve a place to call their own.
  Had someone came up and said the Italian people don't deserve a place to call their own, would you not call them racist towards Italians?
  Why not the same here?
  You can be against the actions of the Israeli government (I definitely am), but saying it shouldn't exist is a whole other ballpark.
  
  It shouldn't exist. They had a chance but they fucked around. There's plenty of nationalities that don't have sovereign countries. Anthropologists point to roughly 11 nations in the US alone. No government elevating one nation above others should be allowed to continue to exist. Especially where they commit human rights abuses to do so. In fact it's generally the idea of a single nation country that begets these abuses.
  So no. They don't get a land specifically and only for Jews. They aren't special.
  To further drive the point home, you bring up Italy, but Italy was only recently unified in European history. If you want a Jewish version of Italy then you want a single state solution with equal rights and representation for Palestinians.
  
  Exactly: I am antizionist because Jews getting a place of their own implicitly means that some other group, which currently has that place, must be displaced.
  Saying that Jews should have a place of their own is not comparable to saying that Italians should have a place of their own, because being Italian is tied to having hereditary ties to the place that is Italy, whereas being a Jew has no tie to a specific piece of land. It is rather comparable to saying that Christians, Muslims, the Amish, or some other group of people that are dispersed and unified by beliefs not tied to a place should have their own place, and that if such a place does not exist it is legitimate to displace others to establish it.
  I firmly believe that Israel should never have been created. As do many Jews (often ultra orthodox ones). However, I recognise the reality on the ground, that the state now exists and that many of those that moved there have now lived there for up to several generations. I do not believe that two wrongs make a right, and as such, I'm not a proponent of dissolving the state of Israel and displacing the Jews that now live there to make room for those displaced following 1948. However, I do believe that the displaced Palestinians should be allowed to return and have equal rights within the now existing state of Israel.
  
  The Italians already had Italy.
  In this case, a proper analogy would be if furries demanded a place to call their own.
  Would you just give it to them?
  
  They deserve a place, they don’t deserve to steal someone else’s place.
  
  Here in America a lot of whites want "white people to have a place to call their own".
  
  There's a few points of critique.
  Religion is not the same as nationality, there isn't a country that is dedicated to Christianity for example. (well, you have the Vatican but you get what I mean, it's not a nation) It's a different thing, so you can't argue that Jews have no home since they too have a nationality from the country they were born in, like everyone does regardless of religion. I'm not arguing against Isreal existing to be clear, just that having a country for a religion isn't some given right that only Jews don't have. They mgiht be the only ones to have it depending on how interpret it.
  There's interpretations of zionism. At its core it's the belief that the religion should also be a nation. But different sides form around the "how" part. While having a country to live in isn't bad itself, if zionism means driving out others or straight up genocide of others, then it's fair to bluntly oppose it.
  Isreal exists now, but the continued killing and takeover of Palestine is horrible. And these days many bind zionism to the acts and opinions that flourish in Isreal that portray Palestinians as some evil that should be removed. It think opposing an nationalistic view like Zionism is a reasonable action when the country is engaging in invasion.
  
  In your opinion am I a Zionist?
  I believe Israel should be forced back to 1947 borders and there should be thousands of deportations to The Hague for war crime trials. I'd also like part of Jerusalem to be removed from both Israel and Palestine and turned into a world heritage site administered by UNESCO.
  I am anti colonization and don't think they should have created Israel as a nation state displacing an existing community but that horse has bolted.
was “not able to accept reservations from persons we believe might have ties to the Israeli army,”
Doesn't Israel have mandatory service of 1-2 years for young adults? This means every citizen has 'ties' to their army. I wonder whether the news is avoiding that fact since it changes a few narratives, if so.
- It makes things very complicated.
  Recently Israel bombed a medic and claimed he was a combatant. They had a picture of someone that looked like the man sitting in a military uniform in 2019. However that person was not an active combatant at all.
  Their only intelligence to designate him as Hamas was a deep learning match on the picture and the man's face.
  Assuming it was realy the medic in the picture, If any person that was ever affiliated with Hamas is a valid target the same would count for the IDF.
  Meaning all Israeli civilians that ever served in the IDF suddenly count as military targets.
  
  If you do what "they" do as a way to retaliate, are you any different from "them"? We need to be better than that.
- Yes. Pretty much every Israeli citizen will have "ties to the Israeli army".
- mandatory service
  It's in the name, what are you going to do?
  But generally, people who don't want to can avoid going to combat roles.
  1–2 years
  They are increasing it to 3 years for men. Read up on the situation to get a taste of sweet Israeli domestic politics
Cut it out with this antisemitism bullshit. Nobody cares that you're Jewish. People care about genocide no matter what invisible sky being you prefer.
- So banning innocent people who might even agree with them is totally fair? Just because they’re from Israel or because of their religion?
  
  They are banned for possible connections to a country and an organization (IDF) that have been confirmed to perform war crimes.
  If you willfully target children no matter your skin colour, creed, religion or whatever arbitrary set of parameters you are a criminal.
  Israelis are now discovering the price of being associated with war criminals.
  
  That's not what they said
Sounds a lot like what Americans faced when Bush attacked Iraq. And just as justified (ie not unjustified, but perhaps taken to extremes).
Israelis: Your government has made your nation a pariah. You are the people best positioned to change that. Get those motherfuckers out of office.
- Israelis: Your government has made your nation a pariah. You are the people best positioned to change that. Get those motherfuckers out of office.
  They're trying... but for some inside perspective: the atmosphere feels somewhat oppressive. All mainstream media (except for this same Haaretz newspaper) get their info directly from the IDF, not considering other sources. And the right's decades-long campaign to convince the majority of the populace that peace is impossible seems to be working (it's a really complicated situation, made worse by people who actively want to make it worse). Compound that with the police becoming increasingly politicized (not that they weren't discriminatory at all before), and you get a recipe for just a mess. You would just as well be asking why Russians haven't got rid of Putin, Hungarians of Orbán, etc.
  And despite that, there are protests. There are demonstrations. But dear Netanyahu doesn't want to call an election. One can only hope that his coalition collapses over internal issues (look up: conscription of ultra-orthodox Jews, a hostages-for-ceasefire deal), though that is unlikely.
  And this is even more horrible when you consider that Netanyahu's policy of strengthening Hamas and weakening the PA/PLO, in order to lessen the chance of peace and, in his view, better Israel's security, has led to the country actually losing territory for the first time in decades! Israelis would literally be safer if the Oslo accords had continued, to actual peace. But good luck convincing them (even those who oppose the current government) of that after years of right-wing government which made it seem impossible.
  I want to stress that I don't think your average Israeli citizen is an evil person. Not even your average IDF soldier (except those that actually call the shots). They believe that what they're doing is necessary, because of (justified) anger at the 7th of October events, as well as the incredible success of the right in general to move the political climate in its direction. Might this be stupid? It might, but there are consequences for falling out of line (especially in the army, as you might imagine). That hasn't stopped some admittedly brave people from doing it.
  We've already seen that Netanyahu doesn't care about protests; those are perpetual in Israel. He will only resign if he is absolutely convinced that it is better for his personal well-being to do that (currently, he doesn't. He's on trial for corruption).
- The people themselves migrated there and are direct actors inthe ethnic cleansing
  
  That is simply incorrect. Most Israeli citizens were born in Israel
- At least in the UK a lot of this was irritation that, yet again, our country was being drawn into a war that had nothing to do with us. It wasn't aimed at individuals (although certain people decided to take it like that), it was the American government that we were annoyed with.
  Everyone knows being rude to Americans is bad for mental health, because they're the only group that will complain about it. For ages.
  
  Why though? We're nice people we swear! Everyone says we're the nicest. Nice people just can't get ahead in this world without people being rude to them.
  (luckily I have ADHD, so ages ends.....now.)
- Many of them want to vote these bastards out, but they didn't succeed so fuck em all? Pretty intense absolutism ya got there.
  nondescripthandle made an excellent comment along these same lines: https://alexandrite.app/lemmy.world/comment/11202637
  
  You're putting words in my mouth. I never said fuck 'em. I said keep fighting.
Not a shock. The war has changed a lot.
Waffen-IDF and acolytes will not be granted room and board haha
Chad Japan hotel!
- Knowing Japan, it probably is in there somewhere.
- You can't not serve someone because of their country - the hotel doesn't know whether this man is a soldier or not, just that he's Israeli.
  
  Apparently you can.
- The term isn't war criminal, I mean he might be a war criminal, but we don't know that. The term is politically exposed. He has an infinitely greater potential to be a war criminal in a way that Joe Average from Australia doesn't have.
  Of course both could be war criminals, and neither could be war criminals, but you have to work on probabilities.
  
  That's just profiling with extra steps lol
Whoever said history repeats itself was spot on
- What are you referring to? This about the war in Gaza.
  
  What are you referring to?
  Similarities to efforts to collectively end apartheid in South Africa.
https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/bookauth/zionism/america.htm
It is an atlantic article but it's from the 90s and an excerpt from a book. America was already Zion, but Jews integrated too much for the hyperconservatives.
- That sounds like a unconstitutional restriction on the freedom of speech and religion corporations enjoy.
  Who am I kidding, of course they aren't consistent.
Truth is that many don't care that they get called anti semitic because one small subset of a religion over applies the term entirely out of context. They made it a meaningless slur on anyone who is against genocide.
- Something tells me that when they say anti semitic, they mean against Jewish interests. Of course they also believe Israel is a big component of said interests.
The Israeli government sucks, but it's not fair to punish its traveling citizens for that.
- Yes it is.
  The Israel government does not exist in a vacuum. Its Israelis running the government, Israelis committing war crimes, and its Israelis who should be held accountable for their actions.
  
  "The American government does not exist in a vacuum. It's Americans running the government, Americans committing war crimes, and it's Americans who should be held responsible for their actions."
  
  Its Israelis running the government
  Elected government. Have you heard of majority rule? The government needs only 50% + 1 votes to get in power. Also consider the low voter turnout.
  
  Reminder that the current israeli government got only 49% of the votes. They lost the popular vote so to speak.
  
  Oh, so civilian Palestinians are therefore wholly responsible for Hamas attacks in October and suffer reasonable consequences?
  Civilians are NOT RESPONSIBLE, I can't believe I have to explain that.
- Go look up some interviews of Israeli citizens on the street, their Tik Tok videos, etc. and find out what the average Israeli citizen has to say about Palestinians. The entire society has been brainwashed into being genocidal maniacs. The vast majority of the citizens are just as bad as the government.
- They all serve in the IDF. They have all been actively involved in war crimes. There are no innocent Israeli adults.
  
  They have not all beem involved in battle in Gaza, and some could also flee to avoid serving.
  I can't believe we have to explain that not all citizens are responsible for war when Israel makes such wide radical assumptions to raze Gaza.
  You're playing the wrong (Israeli) side when you assume civilians are to blame.
  
  This is going to get you nowhere. What are you saying? Lock everyone up? Despite being wrong and immoral, it's also impractical.

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