Your next Windows PC may need at least 16GB of RAM

lol how much ram does that need when they're shipping every bit of data on your computer to their servers to do processing on there?
- Why not outsource the power usage and hardware costs to the consumer and just reap the end result?
Meh, Windows itself, even with all the bloat still active, doesn't need more than 2 Gigs. That's one of the few issues microsoft isn't responsible for.
- Try using it on a 2 or 4 GB machine. It's pretty much impossible.

If Microsoft wants more RAM just to do AI shit on my computer, I'd rather have even less just to make sure they cant.

You now understand why I constantly run at 10 bytes below my OS drive's limit. They cant take consent away if what they want to do is physically impossible. Sure you can delete some temporary files but that's only going to net you 1GB max. Good fucking luck.

My next OS will be some kind of Linux. I just had to reinstall Windows 11 because it corrupted it's install after some time. I had to uninstall so much crap and regedit so many thinks just to get it back to where I was before. I don't want Bing search in my windows search results. I don't want your stupid widgets and I don't want your browser or 90% of your default apps. And no I don't want office 360 or onedrive. So stop forcing it into my face. When Linux gets Plasma 6 and HDR support there is only holding me back my Nvidia GPUs Linux compatibility. While I hah to install windows 11 again I played a lot of games on my Steam Deck! It's is awesome and only some games with obscure anti cheat don't run. (well some times they don't run on windows too)

I love to bash MS, but this feels like an industry-wide trend to /never/ care about optimizing beyond the bar of "typical specs of new devices in rich countries". I'm guessing it's just to limit labor costs, and computers are less-rapidly-improving than the 90s/00s?

Code optimization has pretty much fallen by the way side since ram prices keep going down and cpu performance keeps improving.
Why spend the time if you don't have to?
Browsers are some of the worst culprits.
- Just for the sake of a beautiful audited and blazingly fast codebase that tuns qo good that Raspberry Pi user can run your stuff too.
  I love optimisation!
- premature optimization is the root of all evil - Donald Knuth
  which does not excuse a total lack of optimization, but gotta hit those kpi's

It already should have that. 8 GB is the absolute bare fucking minimum for most computers these days, but unless you have 16, it's a generally unpleasant experience.

For windows, yes. For Linux and OSx, 8gb si still ok for most usecase
- While 8GB is typically enough for Linux today, it may not be enough a few years from now. Buying a laptop with 8GB of soldered in RAM would limit the useful life of it.
- With 8G oom killer will kill my Firefox process.
  I was evaluating Linux desktop prior to switching my work pc to Linux with an 8G VM and it wasn't enough for just browsing and general tinkering.
- Yep, browsing, developing, listening to music all alright on 8GB, could probably run on even 4.
8GB was the bare minimum in 2010. It’s amazing how the increase of memory just stopped.
- Didn’t memory get heaps expensive for a while there?
8 GB is the absolute bare fucking minimum for most computers these days
I keep seeing this statement all around the web but it is still amazing that we need that much RAM even for today.
Don't get me wrong, I know 8 GB is becoming the standard even for mobile phones, so it is only logical to assume to bump this number for PCs (why no 12 GBS of RAM? IDK) and I have been using 16 GBs of RAM for 10 years now, it is a MacBook Pro and for me Apple does not make it clear to see how much of that RAM I'm actually using... Regardless RAM has never been a problem for me, with casual usage, and I always thought 8 GBs should work the same for even a lighter usage, why do I say that? Because before moving to such a Mac I used a laptop with 4 GBs of RAM around 2011-2014 and it was a pain in the ass to use (the processor was shit as well) for simple navigation for my thesis... So yeah if you think 8 GBs is bad, try 4 GBs.
Another reason I think 8 GBs is "a high amount for casual usage" is that my work PC had also 4 GBs of RAM, but there was not a reason to hoard tabs and such, so it was very manageable (also the processor wasn't shit, but it was like a Core i5 or something like that, the usual office PCs you see and know), if we are talking about bottlenecks it would be the shitty HDD speeds LMAO.
What I think you guys all mean with 8 GBs of RAM is the bare minimum for nowadays standard is if you use it for IT related topics or you like to hoard stuff in it (which ain't bad, unused RAM is wasted RAM after all) or simply depend on heavy programs which ain't the web browser, for casuals I'd say 6 GBs would be a fair number, although it is not usual, and fuck 4 GBs of RAM in 2024, for any kind of device lol (I bet offices still use that dog shit).
Anyway I'd personally aim for 16 GBs of RAM or more regardless, for any of my future purchases, because I like to keep my stuff for years to come.
- I am on the poorer side and living in one of the central European countries (yeah I'm a teen)
  I only have a core 2 duo desktop with 3 GB of ram and a laptop with a i5 also with 3gb of ram, both only HDD machines
  The desktop now runs Linux, but because it has components even Intel doesn't want to list on their website (the mobo) it runs it pretty poorly (also I bricked it somehow not run windows or any other usb install media, which is a big problem), the laptop runs windows 7 (it literally refuses to open the update utility I downloaded from MS's website, so that's that, two obsolete machines, that are absolutely horrendous to do anything with (not to mention my shitty 350$ phone is more powerful than both of them combined)
- why no 12 GBS of RAM? IDK
  Because computing architecture is based around powers of 2, and having memory that follows that pattern is more efficient.
  What I think you guys all mean with 8 GBs of RAM is the bare minimum for nowadays standard is if you use it for IT related topics or you like to hoard stuff in it (which ain’t bad, unused RAM is wasted RAM after all) or simply depend on heavy programs which ain’t the web browser,
  I would disagree. Even casual usage these days is much more demanding than it once was. Try having Chrome, Spotify, and Discord open all at once. You're going to start pushing that 8 GB further than you'd imagine. Plus, look at the new apple silicon macbooks. They put 8 GB in as the baseline saying shit like "since we designed it to all work together, it's more efficient", and real world test have shown that to be complete nonsense.
  4 GB is completely unacceptable for deskop/laptop usage and would be a miserable, if not nearly unusable experience.
  16 GB right now is definitely the baseline any new machine should have. I have a MacBook Pro from 2015 that has 16 GB and it still feels reasonably comfortable to use.
  I do agree with your central premise here that it's absurd that we need so much. But it's just what happens as hardware advances, software developers push the limits of what the hardware can handle. Either that, or they're just lazy and don't bother optimizing since they think the machine can handle it (looking at you Chrome devs, and anyone who uses Electron).
- why no 12 GBS of RAM?
  Because there were no 6 or 12 GB modules. But that changes with DDR5
- My Win10 PC with just my default apps open, which is mainly Firefox, Steam, a few other Launchers, Obsidian and Messaging clients - 8GB definitly doesn't cut it today anymore. Running a newer game smashes the 16GB border easily.
I have 8 and am able to play 4x games at high settings w/o significant lag until late game lol. People really tend to blow this one out of proportion. Unless you're an incredibly heavy user you probably don't need more than 8 and 16 still feels luxurious.

That's the thing. WHY should it need that? What is the OS doing that could possibly justify that level of memory use?
- The browser
  Electron apps
  Prefetching
  AI shit/telemetry
  Other than a browser, I had none of these on my Linux machine and I could comfortably run on 4GB of RAM

I do have 16GB RAM, but that's not because I wanted to run just the OS and without a game.

linux needs like 1gb of ram and some distros even less

256MB on my old NAS running OpenMediaVault.
- Actually only 22% of the memory used, even while streaming audio. just the cpu fluctuates feom 0% to 70%
  Looking at this prompted me to set the proper date after yesterdays reboot

My new PC has 64g ram. But I'm also not using or plan to use windows. Checkmate M$!

But in all seriousness, 8g is like, the foundational minimum these days. Sad tbh. Browsers are so bloated these days. I'm surprised that browsers haven't become their own OS yet. It kinda feels that way in some environments.

Phones are coming with 12GB and Apple are still only putting 8Gb in their ‘pro’ line.
🙃
- Does it really matter though that iPhone has less RAM? Their architecture is super efficient and can get by with less than android bloat.
Well, Chrome OS is a thing.
- ChromeOS is more of an OS built to optimize a browser though. Its close though.

Microsoft are such weirdos. It's like they're trying to empower Google, who will lap up all of the users they abandon as they install Chrome OS, because let's be honest, the average Jo seldom just installs Linux, so they'll say, "oh I've heard of Chrome, let me try that"

Average users aren’t going to be installing an OS.
- No, they're going to buy a Chromebook instead of a Windows laptop
And most people just use a web browser apparently. Oh, and HP printers that break every few weeks. "Hey, you're a programmer, fix my printer."
- 😂

Already switched to linux

I have 32 gigs of ram and this shit is going to make me switch to Linux as well.
I do not want an OS that demands half of my processing power just to run in the background. I see absolutely no reason for an OS to demand 2-4 gigs of ram, let alone up to 16

I may have 128Gb in my current rig (Dell Precision T7610), but if this is the way you’re gonna be bloating Windows 12, imma gonna be running to OpenSUSE or some BSD.

Yes, I use Win10Privacy to lobotomize all of the spyware and cruftware that comes with Windows. But it’s gotta be re-run after every significant Windows update.

My next Windows PC doesn't need any RAM, because I'm not going to need one.

Oh no! I won't be able to run Windows on my new MacBook Pro!

New macbook Pro doesnt even have 16GB?? Do they come with a 32GB SSD too?
- AFAIK is the basic configuration for the new M3 MacBook Pro a meager 8gb shared RAM with 512gb SSD for 1999 Euros (in Germany so ymmv).
I have 16gb on my M2 Air, and 8gb on my 2014 mini. I’m genuinely surprised at how usable that mini still is. Hell, it’s running Sonoma through OCLP, but it’s only when I boot up the Win11 VM I have installed that it really starts to struggle.
- I honestly just made a double pun regarding the new MB Pro with 8gb in the basic configuration and the coming Windows with the 16gb requirement - which both seem strange product decisions with lots of negative customer feedback.

Another reason to move to Linux ;P

Ubuntu is by far the most popular distro and it is no more efficient than Windows, on the contrary. RAM usage in particular is worse.
- Try Linux Mint with XFCE. I don't see this RAM usage issue at all. I have Firefox open with several other apps in the background again running XFCE with Linux Mint (Based on Ubuntu), it's using 1.9GB RAM total (thus below the 2GB).

Jesus Christ, what are they doing? Emulating the OS in fucking Minecraft!?

The article mentions AI. 16gigs feels far too little to run a LLM of respectable size so I wonder what exactly this means? Feels like no one is gonna be happy about a 16gig LLM (high RAM usage and bad AI features)
- Of fucking course it's AI, why the hell wouldn't it be AI. For fuck sake, it's like they want their users to switch to Linux.
- No 16 gigs is ok for an LLM
  On your gpu
JavaOS
Wait, we talking dedotated wam?!
Plausibily, they could be trying to dictate the minimum standard for budget laptops, win11 doesn't really need a TPM, it's in the minimum spec so that every laptop is forced to have one.

Don't worry! Eventually, they will find a "cure," such as Windows moving to a cloud-only model where your PC becomes a glorified dumb terminal!

So like Windows 365, but for consumers.

That's probably not the worst option for most consumers. People are horrible about keeping their shit updated.
Most people only use their computers for web browsing anyways, and many people buy systems that are way more powerful than what they actually need. I've had to talk a ton of people out of buying i7 laptops just for Office and the internet.
I've built and maintained Citrix VDI environments for a global company, and once people get over the "this is new" hurdle, they love it.

I will have no next windows PC anyways. I'll go out of my way to get one without a windows license, to put linux onto it :)

- Unfortunately they don't ship to norway (or have a norwegian layout available). But would really like one if/when they do. Not in a rush to get a new laptop now though. I'll keep framework in mind when its time for a new one.

Meanwhile, chrome and desktop apps (Electron-based) like Slack, note apps, etc, takes 1GB just to open... Well, tbh I don't know if they really use physical RAM space, but anyway.

Going to need 32 GB of RAM or more plus a GPU with 48 GB of VRAM just to run Win12 w/ AI subsystem so you have enough headroom to run a program or two

RAM is cheap, and even if you're just doing absolute basic shit your current PC will work better with 16GB of RAM (also looking at you here, Apple). If it's not a phone you're buying don't get anything with less than 16GB.

It is not just RAM. They also require special hardware/chip to run ANN

my first computer was a tandy sensation which has 4mb of ram and a 100mb hard drive

Anyone an idea or a link what kind of AI they want to run on people's machines? Will it add something for the user or just annoy you and add more targeted advertising?

The second one.
Clippy v.2.
- They're going to make us miss that clueless little bastard.
- Hehe, pretty sure it's that. With Microsoft's history of letting loose racist and unhinged chatbots... I'm eager to get to know Clippy v2.
Even as far back as XP/Vista Microsoft has wanted to run the file system as more of an adaptive database than a classical hierarchical file system.
The leaked beta for Vista had this included and it ran like absolute shit, mostly because harddrives are slow and ram was at a premium, especially in Vista as it was such a bloated piece or shit.
NTFS has since evolved to include more and more of these "smart" file system components.
Now they want to go full on with this "smart" approach to the filesystem.
It'll still be slow and shit, just like it was 2 decades ago.

This goes two ways, everyone with less ram will probably don't know about Linux and just lose their laptop (not upgradable ones) and: new built laptops will have more ram and better CPUs. And guessing with the windows handheld industry this also boosts them. But it's gonna be a big shame people just abandoning their tech because of not enough knowledge.

This is like people abandoning a stick shift and rigid frames/chasses for modern automatic/CVT and and unibody with crumple zones. The latter are complicated, expensive, and inefficient - but substantially more forgiving to the average driver who merely wants to get from A to B with the minimum amount of effort. Linux will be there for people who choose to dedicate hundreds of hours a year to the hobby of computers. For everyone else who doesn't want to open their laptop to replace the keyboard, update their wireless card, and clean or replace the system fans and solder in a new power connector, buying a new laptop with the extra horsepower (to overcome the code creep) will offer them all those things at a price cheaper than even taking them to the corner repair shop to get the mechanical failures fixed.
- Linux will be there for people who choose to dedicate hundreds of hours a year to the hobby of computers.
  And my grandma. She's been running Linux just fine for the past 3 years. I don't think she even knows what an OS is.
- That's a bit hyperbolic. You're talking as if it's still early 2000s. Many Linux distributions have very good user experience for beginners and better out-of-the-box device driver support than even Windows.
  I choose one of those niche distributions since I have advanced requirements. But I have observed a steady decline in hardware-related issues over the years. In fact, Linus Torvalds confirms this in an interview.
  Linux distributions are a viable alternative to Windows these days. But what keeps people away from it is misinformation and FUD like these.

It already does imo

Even on linux you need 8gb to use to a web browser with ad block

Well you'll need X GB to use a X GB file whatever the OS, here windows seems to need 16 just to run which is quite ridiculous.
@Fizz true. My PC came with 4 GB originally. It was a pain once I opened the browser or Discord (which I usually do). Upgraded to 12 and no longer have any issue, at least on the current distro.
@throwslemy

All this will do is push standard users into more expensive machines. Which, well, yeah, that's the point.

I mean, 16GB? Is anyone who's aware of RAM needs on a workstation accepting that in the first place? I'd love to run a poll and see who's running less than 32. 16 was luxurious 15 years ago.

I'm still running 16GB. I built my PC in 2015 and it's been my gaming/work/dev machine ever since. Have only upgraded GPU and storage.
It is definitely showing its age, but I don't need to worry about the Windows requirements. My CPU isn't supported for Windows 11 so I'm sticking with what I've got until Windows 10 hits EoL. Then I'll probably buy a 64GB AMD system and switch to Mint at that point.
I take it you don’t know much about enterprise IT. I guarantee most businesses are running 8-16GB as standard. Where I live an 8GB laptop costs $1400, the equivalent with 16GB costs $1900. And to get 32GB you’re looking at an additional $1600.

Wow! I'm surprised that everyone is so surprised. Windows resource requirements - especially the RAM - have always grown exponentially between major versions. Remember that we started with some 16MB RAM. They have consistently demanded hardware that completely obsoletes the hardware in the market that can run the previous generation of Windows.

Windows is the best example of a software that always manages to completely nullify or even negate the Moore's law.