☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆ @ yogthos @lemmygrad.ml

Posts

830

Comments

1,000

Joined

5 yr. ago

So weird how people living under western regimes are more concerned about Chinese state control and monitoring than their own. If you live in a western country then your concern is that any western piece of technology is controlled and monitored by the NSA. But that's just too complex an idea for you to wrap your head around I guess. Screeching China bad is your peak intellectual ability clearly.

I agree, I’d phrase it as if your labour is the primary means of paying your bills then you're working class.

Another factor is the economic damage that the west is suffering as the result of the sanctions war with Russia. Europe in particular is now going into a deep recession, and having to keep pumping money into NATO is only going to make the problem worse. We're already starting to see bickering amongst European countries, and internal dissent rising. I expect these trends to continue going forward. Meanwhile, a large chunk of neocons in US now sees European theatre as a distraction from China. If the war in Ukraine is decisively lost then it's entirely possible that US decides to abandon Europe and focus on Asia instead.

https://archive.ph/Nd4Ix

My bad, you did talk about consumption based emissions. The point you keep avoiding is that China is currently implementing a tangible plan while Europe is not.

Then source that. I gave you a source, the same website you used first, and it shows exactly what I said. Here it is again, just to be clear. Energy consumption is not the same as emissions.

You just keep going in circles here, and I've addressed this multiple times. Go back and read what I said. Nobody is saying energy consumption is same as emissions. I don't know why you keep bringing that up to be honest.

I’ve never argued Europe’s higher historic emissions, but no matter who has done more historically we still all need to stop producing so much pollution now. China emitting less historically will not save us if it produces more in future.

Sure, and as I keep pointing out. China has a clear plan that's being implemented ahead of schedule. Europe does not have such plan, and it does not want to work with China on implementing one. That's the real problem here.

You've been continuously claiming that EU has per capita emissions on part with China. This is false.

Meanwhile, the elephant in the room is that Europe has had far higher consumption-based emissions historically with China catching up only recently as the standard of living in China started to increase. So, if we're talking about actual cumulative damage done, Europe bears far greater responsibility.

Once again, China has a clear plan for phasing out fossils and it has been consistently ahead of schedule in doing so. Same cannot be said for Europe.

and when you do that you see that EU has significantly higher per capita consumption put together which is what I have been saying here all along

I’m literally taking the entire EU average from your source. I have been consistently and completely clear about that. Why are you lying so blatantly? Seriously, quote me cherry picking just part of the EU. I can sure as hell quote you cherry-picking specific parts of it.

You're literally not doing that because the source is breaking Europe into emissions by country. Seems like you're the one blatantly lying here. What I said repeatedly here is that the lowest emissions in EU countries are on par with China, however many of the northern EU countries are much higher. So, when you add it all up that's a higher number. I don't know if you're lying intentionally or just incapable of understanding basic math here.

So not what you said in your previous comment then. Besides that, I’ve been using the average figures for the entire EU the whole time. Your own link has that figure. I told you where it is as well. Energy usage is close, and consumption-based emissions are identical.

It is what I said in my previous comment. To get the average for EU, you'd have to add up all the countries together. What you're doing is cherry picking pars of Europe and comparing them to China's average. If you still can't understand the fallacy you're making then there's likely no point continuing this.

Again: solar panels vs coal. There is not a 1:1 correlation. Stop ignoring that. It’s not helpful to anyone.

Nobody is ignoring anything here. The whole context of the discussion is that China is rapidly ramping up production of solar power.

The reality we live in is that the west carries the biggest historical burden for the climate crisis, and right now China is making a meaningful transition from fossil fuels while western countries are dragging their feet. What's more Europe is now talking about banning electric cars from China and complaining and moaning about becoming dependent on China for its renewable infrastructure at a time everyone should be working together to make the transition as fast as possible.

The map shows the average across all of China. There is no breakdown of any national subdivisions. Where are you getting figures for the highest consumption in China?

Once again, averaged out usage per capita across China is on par with averaged out with poorest parts of Europe. Meanwhile, usage in wealth European countries, is far higher.

Why? Energy consumption is not what’s damaging the environment. Emissions are.

In case you weren't aware, emissions are a byproduct of energy production.

I used consumption-based emissions specifically to account for the balance of imports. Please, at least actually read what I said.

You're complaining that I didn't reply to stuff you edited in after I replied to you?

In 2022, Germany burnt 28 petajoules of coal per million people, whereas China burnt 62 petajoules of coal per million. Values here for Germany and China, divided by populations taken from wikipedia. You’ll also notice that Germany’s consumption is trending down, while China’s isn’t.

You're once again setting up a disingenuous argument here. Germany started with high consumption of coal, but then started getting cheap gas from Russia which is what allowed Germany to start phasing out coal. Now that US blew up the pipelines, Germany is starting to go back to coal.

Meanwhile, China has a clear plan for transitioning off fossils that's being actively implemented as we speak. Coal usage in China has been found to be perfectly inline with the plan. It's also worth noting that China has consistently manged to be ahead of the targets that it set. On the other hand, Europe is nowhere close to pursuing a meaningful transition.

found the dronie

Solar isn't a solution for everything and that's precisely why China is pursuing a multi pronged approach for its transition off fossil fuels. China is actively developing wind power, geothermal, hydro, and nuclear on a massive scale. Each of these technologies has its own pros and cons, and they all work together.

🤡

lol

What the map clearly shows is that the highest consumption in China is on part with the lowest consumption in EU. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble with this to be honest.

Meanwhile, the reason to focus on energy consumption is because it's far more meaningful than focusing on emissions. EU countries are largely deinudstrialized and they import much of the necessities from places like China. This creates a skewed picture of emissions because EU outsources much of the emissions needed for EU to operate to other countries.

And last I checked burning increasingly more coal is precisely what EU is doing. In fact, Germany is even dismantling wind farms to create more coal plants https://euobserver.com/green-economy/157364

My link shows that it varies significantly across the EU and northern European countries consume around double of China per capita.

I did engage with the argument, maybe work on your reading comprehension?

That's factually wrong, US, Canada, and lots of nordic countries have far higher per capita consumption. Meanwhile, the transition from fossils at China is happening at a far more rapid pace than in the west. The gap is actually growing over time.