Yggstyle @ yggstyle @lemmy.world

Just another voice yelling in the void.

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2 yr. ago

I didn't ask you for anything and you didn't explain anything to me. This was my first comment in this thread. Maybe take some time and see who you are responding to first?

Forgive me for mistaking your hostility on your -first- interaction for being the same blind hostility the prior poster was expressing. That said: find some chill and be civil. Others can manage it- I'm certain you can as well.

You can shove your civility politics up your ass. Being civil doesn't make it not bigoted and doesn't make you right.

See above.

Since you are too lazy to look them up yourself and do the legwork, I'll do it for you:

I'm educated enough to know the definitions and my experiences certainly give me insight to what you are copying and pasting, thank you. As you were dropping into the conversation above maybe provide some insight as to why you think all of these are completely independent of each other. They aren't but please expand.

If your definition is as broad as you imply, everything is your sexuality and therefore kids doing anything and having any options at all are sexual in nature. Your definition is useless.

I mean freud certainly thought so 🤣. Jokes aside- Let's be direct: what do you think developing an identity is? Why do we do it?

I understand your view however I disagree fundamentally on a few aspects of it.. please bear with this line of questioning:

Why is it imperative they chose so early? (I know the answer but play along... I promise this has a point)

If the reason you stated is physical ... why are we discounting the physical risks associated with the side effects? Do those outweigh the safety and healthy life of that person later in life? Are we overly applying weight to physical appearance over safety? It's common in a lot of other scenarios...

Recall that my assertions are pointed at effectively highschool age and below: not all of a body's development (sexual and otherwise) occurs at this phase. Post highschool the young adult is now able to make decisions (largely) for themselves. Around that time they have a much better sense of identity as well. Is it absolutely critical to force that decision prior to that considering that?

Why not counseling and emotional support during their early development and let them make the decision when they are more legally capable after that time?

That got longer than I wanted but I'm curious what your thoughts are.

You opened the dialogue with me, friend. You asked me about my opinion and I explained it. I asked you for the same courtesy and you responded with that. Be civil.

I even made a pretty good example of that laughable comparison you asked me to. Rather pleased with it, tbh.

Now: If what you say is true then nobody would be needing reassignment therapy. It doesn't matter who you sleep with or what's in your pants after all.

Now we know that is not true and there is a difference between a man who is gay and a man who is transitioning to a woman. Further it is absolutely about sexuality. We are sexual beings. Our identity is tethered to it. That is the whole point of the transition. Becoming a ______ (who you believe yourself to be.)

Yes: relationships are not only sexual and can be formed for many reasons ... but to say that it isn't sexual nor tied to what is in your pants is simply incorrect or misinformed.

I'm getting downvoted because I made a strongly worded statement that makes a parallel that makes people uncomfortable. It's easy to push a button and feel like you've somehow confirmed your social values. It doesn't bother me. If they don't speak up they had nothing to contribute.

No, pretty much nobody thinks a child should be having a sexual relationship with whomever they want. However, teens do have those relationships, and most of us acknowledge it happens and are generally ok with it provided there aren’t clear signs of abuse.

However we aren't okay with early teens having those relationships outside of controlled environments (age etc.). You can decide as long as it's within our parameters. And while this is happening - we still legally eviscerate teens that have sex with each other. I digress.

Likewise, no one thinks a child should medically transition. [truncated] Your hypothetical example was to give people a mental image of 6 and 7 year olds when you know damn well the conversation is about 16 and 17 year olds. And if you genuinely weren’t aware, you are now, so it’s time to rethink your position.

I'm all for it at 16 or 17. This is being done on/to 12-15 year old highschoolers. This is the target age range I was looking at as well. I selected an ambiguous age because it drove the point home. I know damn well what I wrote and why I wrote it. Everyone loves to assign additional meaning to someones actions- not dissimilar from forcing kids into a risky decision early on in their development.

If you want to talk about these decisions in the age group where they’re actually happening, then sure, let’s talk. But it’s not going to be conversational if you’re not willing to start from a position of intellectual honesty.

I've been nothing but honest. I come from a family of educators and medical professionals. My opinions are founded based on my experiences, my friends experiences, and my families experiences. But I guess intellectual honesty isn't that. Please direct me which line I need to intellectualy fall into?

There are better ways to support a child struggling with their identity than affirming that they aren't right and need drugs to fix themselves. It's not meant that way but it's certainly a perception that isn't uncommon.

And if the therapy aligns with their physical gender? No treatment for a girl who goes through puberty too young? Nothing for a girl of 17 who is worried because she hadn't started "developing" or gotten her period? Nothing for a boy who isn't going through male puberty, or starts it at 5? Intersex kids who are mis-assigned at birth and panic as adolescents?

This is EXACTLY the point I'm making. Should we shove steroids into the boy and estrogen into the girl? Push up and padded bras in lieu of boob jobs? Are we in such a hurry to cram drugs down someone's throat that we can't let them develop and then make a decision on their own when they are capable of? My original statement is just that. We can't say one is right when the other isn't. Provide emotional support and education? Absolutely. Provide drugs and potentially life changing side effects on "proven" yet not thoroughly tested treatments? No. It's my opinion, sure, but my reasoning is sound.

Yes the therapies are not without risk, but doing nothing is also not without risk. The only reason doctors will prescribe puberty blockers is if the kids are suffering, otherwise the "care" that is getting outlawed is counseling. I have a trans kid and the doctor prescribed counseling but they can't get it because the clinics aren't allowed to "treat" the transgendered now.

This is a complex topic. Absolutely counseling should be available and it's positively evil that someone would block that. I don't disagree. Many doctors are simply a walking prescription book and will provide what is asked for... so I will typically discount when someone uses doctor prescription as an argument. Kudos to that doctor, though- I respect that.

A great deal of that suffering is from lack in of emotional support. I know it's common to solve this with drugs but let's ease off the gas a bit.

It's a balance. This isn't a disease - many of the things you listed are psychological and the result of how family and friends treat that person. It's not terribly different from someone starting to realize they may be gay, asexual, or any other of many non-typical alignments. We shouldn't be so quick to push someone on the path for drugs when what they need is time and emotional support.

Man I have to disagree on the heart example. One means death if it's not 'treated' and the other is a life choice.

Of course pre-hormones is a great time to start but for external / appearance reasons. Do we not force body types on kids enough? It's shallow thinking and reinforces the worst parts of society.

I do understand the urge to just dive into it but it's not as clean cut as just "push pause." There are known risks, unknown long term effects, and a lack of sufficient testing on how it affects brain development. We need to stop rushing into shit just because it's easy or highlights how virtuous we are.

This is the first half that everyone wants to champion but reality is that drugs of any kind - treatments of any kind - have side effects and lasting effects.

Hitting pause as everyone so eloquently puts it does actually have effects outside of underdeveloped sexual organs. It's not a magic bullet.

I'm not against someone being who they want to be but do so after the age of consent when your development is slowing down. It's safer.

As far as what children are equipped to deal with: That age range is for discovering their identity. Hitting pause is a disservice to that cause. Yes the physical changes are a real thing - but those changes aren't all sexual either and are affected by the drugs we're shoving onto these kids.

If anything the current culture is forcing them to make a decision on "take these drugs now or you won't be perfect." Fuck that. Pushing a decision on them like that, regardless of our intent, is no better than denying who they are (or who they may become) outright.

I may not advocate for changing children when they are developing but once they have more time to be certain of who they want to become - I'm all for it.

You’ve now made it absolutely clear that you are just yet another anti-trans bigot who is pretending to want a conversation, but instead is just trying to weasel your abhorrent views into the public discourse.

You appear to be assigning a whole lot of assumptions on me there with a ton of baseless claims. Calm the fuck down.

I can comprehend what you wrote perfectly well - I’m just verifying that you didn’t make an error in what you said.

Based on what you've called me, and insinuated what my stance was: I doubt that sincerely.

You have failed, and everyone here sees through your bullshit.

And yet others are having a perfectly reasonable conversation about the topic with me without coming to the utterly insane conclusions you have.

You are what is wrong with discourse, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

I am perfectly happy with my opinions and am willing to discuss them with others. I know it's upsetting that my opinion differs from yours but that is no reason to kick and scream like a petulant child.

Side note to anyone else reading this: it’s SUPER easy to block people like this on lemmy and there really aren’t as many of these chodes as you’d think.

I disagree with this guy so fall in line because I said so.

As I said. Petulant child throwing a tantrum.

If someone is that simple minded that they would actually do that - I'm not sure their choice would register as a negative to me.

Keeping things ambiguous makes your statements hollow. Expand and express some actual capacity for conversation or don't bother.

Alright so I'm happy to expand on this but you first: You have only said gender isn't what I said it is. Go ahead and explain simply what you believe it is and what you perceive it's purpose to be.

Your dinner statement is comparing apples and oranges but sure, I'll bite:

A child hates brussel sprouts. They know this because they have had them and can form an informed decision based on their experiences. The first time at aunt Mary's party they were bad but that was one time. Since then there have been multiple times of eating and disliking this food. They are sure they don't like them. Experience helps form our decisions. I could continue but I trust you understand and can extrapolate from there.

I'm happy to continue this dialogue (on either front) but would like you to actually place your definitions and where you stand on the table first.

What's your source for this?

Growing up. Life experiences of myself and friends.

Kids are shitty and form cliques. Frequently. If your opinion or (perish the thought) your appearance were to differ - it makes you a far bigger target. Taking something to increase that difference will result in more of that behavior.

On blockers:

I won't disagree that blockers are a gentler approach but they are not a magic bullet and do actually run the risk of lasting effects. Very little long term research has been done outside of animals and frankly I don't think testing on children is the best way to go about it.

Much like steroids or any other drug you can absolutely stop if you don't think it's for you but what of the physical changes that occur in the meantime? Side effects are known and listed on even the mayo clinic website. Ill reiterate: why are we letting children take on these additional risks as if they don't exist?

Alright I'll play:

Why are you forcing prepubescent children to stay that way? What the fuck is wrong with you?

Am I doing it right?

If you cannot comprehend what I wrote then you clearly are either a child or have the mental capacity of one. I have no issue treating you as such.

Blockers are still a change. Inhibiting your sexuality at that age drives a bigger rift between you and your peers. More so than feeling a bit different. I was blessed enough to grow up with a profoundly diverse group of friends and we supported each other regardless of our choices in sexuality as we grew into our identity. Choosing to deny a change may as well isolate them further.

To your point about state laws against trans rights there is a LOT to unpack there but I was very clear about my stance of protect and support but do not intervene (in development.)

Alright so let's follow this line of thought:

If puberty blockers inhibit hormones and hormones are responsible for the development of our brains and identity: how is hitting pause allowing for an informed decision?

I have more to say on this but I want to keep this discussion focused.