whofearsthenight @ whofearsthenight @lemm.ee

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2 yr. ago

Also very good point. My threat model is I don't want script kiddies with shit that they can get (optionally) off of eBay to be able to read my messages because too many places still default 2fa and other identifiers to SMS. Until RCS defaults to E2E at least in transit, that's tough. From there it's still going to be the mercy of what the OS vendor decides, like Apple in this case. That said, if I were worried about government actors or a targeted attack, I would 1000% used advanced data protection.

Anyway, upvoting your comments as much as I can (+1) because you're totally right and it's a consideration you should have.

SMS works the same as it ever has. Apple hasn't broken anything, they're not polluting SMS, it's always been shit. The Tesla (probably touching a little more on real life) shipped with shitty QA that gave you a crap light and bad stereo. If you take Apple completely out of the equation and just process standard SMS between two Android phones, it's still going to be garbage. If you add an iPhone, nothing changes. When you add iMessage into the mix, it's still not breaking anything, only adding a shim on top of SMS, which admittedly sucks, but I think users would rather see "float liked your message" rather than no acknowledgement. This is also what's happening on Android (and also iOS) a lot of the time.

But just opening up your infrastructure

"Just" is doing a frick-ton of work in that sentence. At a minimum, they would have had to build and maintain data centers, or at the very least add a lot of capacity to existing centers to support potentially quite likely a few hundred million to a billion Android users. Now you have to design and document APIs for other people's use. This alone is why I said just build the app themselves, believe it or not it's probably easier/less headache in the long term. And then there is supporting the API, the users on non-Apple platforms...

And why do they want to do that? We're talking about many millions in expenditure per year for Apple for which they get nothing except less competitive advantage.

Fair point. It looks more specifically they're not if you enable "messages in iCloud" or iCloud backup with messages.

Honestly, the original is pretty good, bare bones start up. Most of those comments are recommendations, not show stoppers.

Like, the suggestion to use lets encrypt is kinda moot if you don't expose to the outside world. I personally choose to add a VPN (wireguard) and access services from outside of my network through that. OP kinda mentions adding a vpn as well, I do that through gluetun.

I'll also take just about any opportunity I can to point out yams.media which got me started using docker for this and you can see how easy it is from this post to add additional services. You can be a real noob and still get a functional server in like 10 minutes.

Of course the idea wasn't new. That's very nearly Apple's business model - they're rarely first to market with a technology. I'm sure if I go look, AIM was probably in there pretty close the App Store launch. But Apple's implementation was quite new. Everyone in the US at least was texting with the phone number as the identifier. Apple made it so that no one had to change any habits, use the same method for texting you have been literally in the same app you always have, and if you text another iPhone it just works better. They didn't make it worse on Android.

I'm not sure how this is "lockout." I already made the argument it's a lock-in tactic, but like when Tesla came out with the supercharger network, should I be mad that it doesn't gas up my Honda? Why would we expect that Apple is going to develop and maintain an app for Android for free and the massive amount of infrastructure that goes with it any more than I would expect Tesla to have added a gas pump to the supercharger network? And similar, it's not like superchargers existing means all of the gas stations are gone.

It's also worth noting that RCS functionally didn't exist during development of iMessage (I think they were forming a committee to decide which committee will implement committee structure votes or something) and that even now RCS implementation is questionable at best between not having E2E as a requirement and the fragmentation that exists even across Android and most especially carriers (lots of examples of RCS being iffy in this thread alone) so it wasn't like Apple looked at a fully-formed SMS/MMS replacement and chose to do their own thing.

Then you tack on 10 years of Google absolutely fumbling the bag with their messaging strategy (everyone reading is thinking of a different one - you're all correct) and now we end up in the situation we're in where not only did iMessage lock-in work for Apple, it worked better than they hoped and it's not just keeping people on iPhone, it's actively attracting people.

My optimistic take on this is that I hope they decide the lock-in isn't worth it in favor of the type of model where they monetize through Apple Pay and stuff and build an Android app because I sincerely doubt there is any other way toward unified messaging, in much the same as Tesla now licensing superchargers to other EV makers. As it stands, Apple could give a shit about Samsung's ads, and aside from the lock-in, a core of their brand is privacy/security so RCS as-is will be a non-starter. Well covered in this thread, but the EU isn't coming to save us and the US has congress that can't even regulate it's own bowel movements, so

Because the technical part has been solved for a while and this has moved into being a social problem. My kids only use iMessage/SMS for people over thirty, and use Snap with all of their friends. In family groups, you standardize on on whatever. Most of my extended family decided on FB Messenger a while ago (I don't participate, but my wife does and can fill me in.) My immediate family just uses iMessage. Friend groups I've seen generally do the same. They pick Telegram or WhatsApp or whatever, and then the quilting club just uses that. This also seems a very US centric issue - basically everywhere else is either on whatsapp or Line or WeChat or whatever.

why use many words when few words do trick

tbh I don't know that I would remind anyone at Google that Voice exists, I think that's just about the only thing that is keeping it alive.

My go-to is just to send an iCloud link. I technically have a Facebook account, but for various social reasons I don't tell anyone and basically only use it for occasionally browsing marketplace. Even that is more data than I like to give Facebook.

I've just been googling a bit because I haven't read about RCS in a while, but I remember thinking then that the show stopping thing is that it's not E2E, and Apple would be dumb to move to since iMessage is. It seems now that E2E is supported but requires clients to support it, which tbh seems the worst of all worlds. At least today I know blue = encrypted, green = not encrypted. If it's optional and we end up in a "is this encrypted? we'll see ¯(ツ)/¯" type of world that is honestly terrible. I also don't know how great it would be if you have to rely on the client vendor to accurately report encryption status because there are some I trust, and especially when it comes to "just download whatever RCS client you want" I absolutely would not trust that.

Yeah, I don't follow the details on this much and my first thought was "Signal had SMS support? WTF?"

It's a lot of things, and Apple kinda backed into the lock-in aspect I think by mistake. At the time it debuted, you mainly used SMS when mobile texting, and SMS is garbage. It's not encrypted, was limited to a small number of characters, etc. Picture/video messaging also isn't part of the standard, so MMS was tacked on with massive limits, because the thing about SMS is that it wasn't really designed with it's own bandwidth in mind and instead piggybacked on the carrier signal in idle time (I'm real fuzzy on the details because it's been so long, if someone knows exactly that would be helpful context.) Most importantly, in the US at least, SMS was a fee carriers absolutely scalped you for. When iMessage came out, carriers were still charging absolutely stupid prices for a package of like 200 texts and per text after, and receiving also counted towards that.

Apple says "hey we have the internet on this thing, let's make it a feature that when you send to other iPhone users it doesn't count against your text package" and then built a "modern" text platform. E2E, rich image/video support, the stuff you mention, etc. They made it so that you didn't have to worry about whether your friend was on iPhone, you could send a message to their number and Apple would figure it out. The green bubble thing initially was just "btw you're paying for this one." The reason I say they kinda backed into the lock-in thing is because obviously the idea here was "buy an iPhone and stop paying stupid carrier fees" which is obviously a lock-in strategy, but that aspect of the carrier plans basically collapsed as Facebook released Messenger that same year, so it quickly became "unlimited for $20" and then just "it's all in your plan (which we're just being less obvious bout gouging you on.)"

The green bubble thing sticks around though in the US largely because the US is one of the few places where iMessage becomes a major player in the messaging space, probably because the US market sees a larger share of iPhone sales due to economics and Apple not really having a low-end strategy except "buy an older iPhone." Other places go to WhatsApp or WeChat or whatever, but Apple continues to grow (I think around 55% in the US?) and now it's an annoyance for everyone. I don't think I've ever really seen anyone care about the green bubble other than "shit now I have to figure out how to send them this video of the whatever." At least for younger generations, this just means that the primary text method becomes Snap (me and my wife are about the only people my kids open the Messages app instead of Snap for) while the olds all use Facebook Messenger, and those who refuse just spend more of their day annoyed.

Anyway, it was a nice convenience when it launched. Personally, I think Apple has little reason to develop and process messaging for free for Android and businesses don't do things to be nice, but they're all about service revenue, so I think they should release an Android app, and make it easy to buy stickers and shit like that, send money via Apple Pay, etc. iMessage has already subtly shifted that direction on iPhone and I know at least in my friend/family group we pass money around like that all the time, and this becomes another thing that's sort of annoying when we hang out with someone who isn't on iOS. also, probably obviously, but it's not even like "oh we're hanging out with the poor friend on Android" or anything, he is also holding a $900-$1200 phone, so the lack of interop on these types of things that should probably just be a protocol is annoying af.

It's not really bad financial advice, and people will absolutely tell you to skip some of the frivolity in the idea of generating a return. I don't think most people think of a car as an investment, but I do think that it's entirely common to spend way, way too much on a car for basic transportation. Giant trucks and SUVs that start at 40k are like the most popular cars in America. Most people probably really do need to be told that they're over-spending on cars. Like, the last time we bought a car, I had to talk my wife out of a monster SUV because she was like "well what if our kids want to take friends [on the two trips we take a year]?" Like, the other 50 weeks of the year, she's solo commuting 10 miles... I'm not making fun of her, this is sort of the default mentality in this country. In the end we settled on a smaller crossover for half the price ( < $20k) and the agreement if we wanted we'll use the money we save to rent an escalade or whatever if we want to take a big trip.

Actually, at this point it's more than ignorance, it's straight up malice. We have to understand that the proles on the right live in an echo chamber and will never see this story, and that's by design. Between the Fox News deliberately and knowingly misleading the country about it, and more important, the entire Republican Party (with your occasional Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, Mitt Romney, etc.) it hard for the rank and file to have any real clue what's going on. Toss in years of ensuring that their base is not educated through their deliberate dismantling of public education and religious indoctrination. It's extremely important to note that you don't get to Trump without the entire party of complicit cowards who are either ignoring the damage he's doing, or are actively encouraging it because they're traitorous fucks, and that it hasn't happened overnight. This has been a very long game, and it's not an accident.

Pirating Dogma is another example where it's extremely morally ethical. Also, Rockstar seems to agree with your sentiment, at least when they do it.

Seriously. Craisins = great. Raisins = bullshit bad wasted grape. Redeemable if they're Raisinets or yogurt covered raisins. (I actually don't hate raisins, but all of the other options are better by a mile.)

I don't know who is responsible for horizontal scrolling UIs to begin with, but I hate them. Carousels work on mobile where there is touch, and absolutely gargle balls on desktop.

Hamburger menus are basically just junk drawers. Which isn't to say that you don't need that stuff, but it's the lazy out for "eh, I don't know a good way to incorporate this into the UI, so let's throw it in this stupid drawer."

Maybe if the Linux community decided on one default there would be more progress on inroads with desktop Linux.

Well, Linus at least agrees with you. I just watch a talk he gave the other day in which he described one of the biggest problems with Linux desktop being that the distros can't even decide on a default package manager/way to package applications and all of the difficulties that creates.

It's funny because even for simple stuff like when I used to update my Plex install manually I'd go to the Plex website, and the list is:

Windows
Mac

Linux: Debian x 32 Bit Debian x.1 32 Bit
Debian x 64 bit
Debian x.1 64 Bit
Fedora ...
Ubuntu ...
Cent ...

and god help you if you're not on one of those versions or you don't use one of those distros.

I'm going to have to interject on even on the first point. FWIW, I'm a person who vastly prefers to use a keyboard when possible, can totally live on a CLI only system, etc. Anyway:

It’s faster and easier than using a GUI. This is because you can type a lot faster than you can click-click-drag with a mouse.

This is just not true for the vast majority of people. Have you ever watched normies type?

The other thing is that even with simple stuff like file operations normal users get lost with a GUI where it's far easier to visualize what is actually happening. If they get a few basic mechanics (click+drag, right click, double click) that's about all they have to remember to move files around. Compared to learning ls, cd, mv, cp, the directory tree, symbols like . and .. and so forth. Or perhaps my favorite example, quick name a valid tar command. On a GUI system like windows/Mac, they just need to remember they can do things to files by selecting them and right-clicking them. On a CLI only system, how the fuck are you supposed to get a regular user to remember that to compress a file, you type in tar to start with, much less remembering flags (my flavor of choice is usually -xvf.) How many people who regularly use linux even know wtf it's called tar?

And that's even forgetting the things like the defaults often being much harder to recover from. In Mac/Windows (and I think even most distros, though I haven't daily driven a gui linux in a while) deleting a file the default way is a safe operation and easily recoverable because by default the gui is designed to be more user-safe.

Though I don't think anyone will disagree with the fact that the CLI is an immensely powerful tool that a lot of us can't do without, it has never been really designed in a way to be accessible to normal users, and I'd be willing to bet that if you were designing a CLI today in a vacuum, it wouldn't look anything like the one we're familiar with. It's why I'd also guess that very few of us that use the command line all of the time don't have a mile long list of aliases, scripts, switching to shells like zsh and things like zsh-autosuggestions or zsh-syntax-highlighting, colorls, a specific terminal emulator they use, and so on and so forth.