the debt
volodya_ilich @ volodya_ilich @lemm.ee Posts 1Comments 543Joined 1 yr. ago
volodya_ilich @ volodya_ilich @lemm.ee
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543
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1 yr. ago
Musk is abso-fucking-lutely NOT responsible for the tax incentives, private investment or low interest loans that Tesla got, he's only been good as an eccentric personality to convince investors that he's the best and full self driving will be a thing the following year... For the past 7 years.
To be fair, it's not you lacking knowledge, it's a fundamental problem in the field of economics, which because of political reasons, has been dominated for the past decades by neoliberalism. The problem is that neoliberalism reaches conclusions that have been falsified by experimental data in several occasions, but since it serves the ideology of the elites, it's peddled constantly in media by prominent "economist" propagandists. If you're interested into the topic and this modern, more empirical vision of the economy, the field is called "Modern Monetary Theory" or MMT. There's a documentary released recently about the basics of it, applied to the US, called "Finding The Money", and I can also recommend the YouTube channel called "Unlearning Economics", which isn't MMT per se but it's very keen on treating economics through empyrism.
Fully agreed, the whole "Debt bad! Deficit evil!" trope is just neoliberal propaganda against public expenditure, which translates into a weakening of the welfare state
if you saturate the market with your currency it becomes less valuable and we end up with runaway inflation.
Notice how I didn't say that the state should create infinite currency, I'm just saying that the limit isn't based on taxation. And funnily enough, if you look at basically all inflationary episodes in developed countries over the past century, they've happened as a consequence of problems with the supply of goods, not as a consequence of excess currency creation. 2022 inflation? Energy prices and supply chain bottlenecks as a consequence of Ukraine invasion and post-covid effects on production. 1970s inflation? Fuel prices... Really, I encourage you to look up a graph of inflation for, say, the USA, over the past century, to look at the inflation peaks, and to make a Google search "crisis of 19XX". You'll find that the inflation was in basically all instances prefaced by a big external event, and not by money creation. Moreover, many of these inflation events happen simultaneously in countries such as the US, UK, Japan and Germany, all of which have different central banks, different currencies, and different rates of currency creation.
Also, there's countless examples of vast increases in money supply without inflation. In the decade of 2010-2020, the EU has created VAST amounts of euros with basically no meaningful inflation. You can look up the Euro monetary mass M2 or M3 over the past decade, you'll find a huge boom, without any effect on inflation. Again, all of this isn't to say there isn't a practical limit to how much you should create before destabilizing the economy, just that the limit is absolutely not imposed by how much you're collecting in taxes, and it depends a lot, for example, on which part of the capitalist boom-bust cycle you are. Another argument for this, is that money creation doesn't have to be just that, it can imply an increase in the amount of available goods and services. As a stupid example, the US government could open a state-funded iron mine and a refinery, hiring all the employees with newly minted currency, and that would effectively increase the total amount of goods and services in circulation, which can balance out the supposed inflationary effect of the currency creation.
About taxes not being currently used practically to reduce inequality, I agree, but that's not a point against the nature of taxation, that's a point against the current decision of who we're taxing, what for, and how much. I absolutely agree with ramping up the taxes of huge multinational companies and their directives. It's just, if we see taxes not as a necessity to fund the state's activity, but as a necessary tool to reallocate money in the economy from rich people to poor people and to create a welfare state and a great infrastructure, it's much easier to explain why Amazon should pay 90% taxes and your average low-paid worker only 10%.
As for your last point with inequality between companies' income and that of people, I couldn't agree more, I'm a hardcore leftist and I want to reduce wealth inequality extremely, again, I'm not arguing for lowering taxes "since they're not necessary", I'm arguing for reallocating the taxes in a much more progressive way to disincentivize certain behaviors such as speculation, and to reduce inequality between the richest and the poorest.
Thanks for the civilized discussion, it's good to be able to actually discuss this stuff.
It's not even about reputation, it's mostly about taxes. You enforce the private sector using the state's monopoly of violence to pay tributes in a currency that you create. This way, when there are transactions in the private sector, the main currency that people will want to use (provided it's stable enough) is the one that lets them pay their taxes later. You can't pay taxes with dollars in Hungary, which makes Hungarian people use Hungarian currency instead of Chinese Yuan even if the Chinese Yuan is a much stronger currency.
And yes, the state having the monopoly of violence and enforcing taxes is a good thing, before anyone accuses me of being an anarchocapitalist.
Your comment stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of public institutions and how money works.
It doesn't matter that the debt is higher than the GDP if it's debt in the currency that the state creates. Japan has a debt of 250% of the GDP and it's always going to pay for it. Why? Because it's in Yen, and the Japanese public sector is the ONLY institution in the world capable of creating Yen. If they wanted, the Japanese central bank could quite literally perform 100 keystrokes on a keyboard, and repay all debt early tomorrow, at a cost of exactly 0 yen to the taxpayer.
Taxes aren't the way a state funds itself. Again, the state creates its own currency, why would it need tax collection to get that currency if it can create it at will at a keyboard's stroke? Taxes serve many purposes, such as forcing people to use your currency in the private sector (they will need that currency to pay for the taxes so it's the one they will use), such as disincentivizing certain behaviours (tax on tobacco for example), or such as reducing inequality (progressive income taxes), or also importantly, removing money from the private sector to reduce or prevent inflation. But the one thing taxes don't do is funding the state budget, since the state's budget is unlimited in theory. There are practical limits, but availability of currency really isn't one of them.
The American citizen won't spend a single dollar paying back state debt, in fact it's exactly the opposite. The state creates the currency with which it pays back the debt, and it's private citizens and corporations who the state owes the interest rate to. If you buy a bond for $1000 at an interest rate or 3%, next year you'll have $1030. The state, through debt, literally creates money for the private sector. It makes people and companies wealthier. Taxes make people and companies poorer, but taxes and debt are completely unrelated to one another, since the state really doesn't need taxes to pay the debt.
I fully agree with your analysis of the poor usage of the state budget and people not getting the welfare state they deserve by right, but that's not something that has to do with debt, it has to do with the government representatives not acting for the benefit of the majority but a select elite of capitalist owners. Debt is purely a financial tool that serves purposes such as creating money, or controlling the interest rates of the country so that people and companies will take more or fewer loans, which has an effect in the economy.
The thing is you're forgetting who are good borrowers and who are bad borrowers. A person with a low income with a precarious job will be a very bad borrower, and imposing a higher interest rate on them on top of that is just the final nail in the coffin. We generally believe universal healthcare is good, and we don't want to discriminate "good health" and "bad health" people and make unhealthy people pay more, do we?
...or, since the federal reserve creates money, they could do quite literally 100 strokes on a keyboard at the FED and repay the debt. A state doesn't fund itself through taxes, taxes serve many purposes but funding a state isn't one of them.
Ugh... Here we go again with the social credit... It's been debunked so many times that it's not even funny anymore. You can ask any Chinese person about it and they don't even know what it is because it's really not a thing. Financial credit scores on the other hand...
Don't forget being the only issuer of the currency you get indebted in. If I could get indebted in a currency I create myself, believe me I would
I'm as much of a leftist as you are, and I'm sorry if I sound a bit pretentious here but the analysis you're doing of debt is wrong.
States generally create their own currency, and generally get indebted (i.e. issue state bonds) in their own currency. You can see how a state that creates its own money doesn't really need debt to be able to pay for stuff, debt is just a political decision, sometimes misguided by people who don't really understand it properly, sometimes properly guided by experts.
A state doesn't need taxes to fund itself either. If it needs to build roads, it can literally create the currency to hire the workers to extract the resources, plan the roads, and build them. Taxes have many purposes such as removing money from the private sector to prevent or reduce inflation, disincentivizing certain behaviours (for example tobacco taxes), lowering inequality (for example progressive income taxes), or even making people use your currency instead of another (people in the private sector will end up using your currency if they are forced to pay taxes in that currency).
Taxing companies and rich people is useful because you place the burden of reducing money for inflation purposes on them instead of on the lower income people, and therefore you reduce inequality, so I obviously support at the very least heavy taxation of income and wealth of private individuals and companies, but the state really doesn't need taxes to fund itself since it creates its own currency and pays in that currency.
Yeah. It's another form of creation of money. It's a useful tool for some things, like the central bank being able to control interest rates in the economy, as shown during the recent inflationary episode.
FOSS isn't communism, Foss hasn't eliminated class relations. Using an free open source library to make more money for your boss isn't communism. While I love FOSS, it's definitely not communism.
Marx never said people aren't nice and don't give things to each other under capitalism as far as I know, where are you taking that from?
And the existence of FOSS is reliant on a few key sectors which capitalism could very well destroy or mutate into something much different than what they are now. I don't see far-fetched the idea that the entire physical infrastructure of the internet will one day be privately owned, and companies will be able to decide who takes part and who doesn't, what kind of content is allowed... The fact that the capitalist overlords still haven't eliminated it, doesn't mean they possibly can't.
Who's arguing against Magic The Gathering??
If you think a reference to Lenin makes you a Tankie, you have no idea what tankies are and you're just blatantly anti-communist, that's the issue here. Thinking that Lenin is an admirable Marxist theorist, doesn't mean you support tanks invading Hungary, and you're either mistakingly or willingly conflating communism with authoritarianism, which is absolute bullshit.
As you can see on the modding history, that was done after my ban. As I explained, that post wasn't there when I posted, my post was the first in the sub and there were no guidelines.
And no, I didn't know it was an "anti-tankie" sub, "de_ml" implies pushing against ml.
Interesting, I'll look up the monetary mass of Japan over time, thanks!