vacuumflower @ vacuumflower @lemmy.sdf.org

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2 yr. ago

Many murderers murder openly and don't get any jail time at all. Cause they are elected politicians.

Other than that - the purpose of the penitentiary system is not to punish people, it's to redeem them. At least in theory. You don't have any right to punish other people (well, an eye for an eye may do, if there's no other way, but that's the worst that's acceptable), especially with such intentional destruction as a life sentence.

So your very approach is criminal intent.

OK, I agree.

It is stuff like this that is fueling the propaganda of Russian’s invasion as an attempt to de-nazify Ukraine.

Wanted to say that nah, that's not really a working mechanism... But suppose some people buy it. What even then, we should just whitewash crimes because recognizing them may strengthen propaganda in some particular case?

I can't say anything about Graeco-Catholic or just Catholic Ukrainians in the USA, but most Ukrainians from ex-USSR I've met celebrate both. They're just kinda modest with the Nazi part, but they are fine with it, and see it as something naughty all big boys have done, not to boast about, but important. They do have a problem as a nation.

Nice to see somebody who likes Eco`s definition, but that'd be circular logic - his Ur-Fascism criteria were a result of optimization based on a selection of axiomatically fascist regimes, Stalin's explicitly included. (Sorry for this sentence being clumsy)

Also Stalin's regime became much more fascist in the middle of war and immediately after it. As an attempt to counter the "national liberation" offering of Nazis, with their national legions etc. So all the republics' anthems are quite pretentious and proud, and Soviet propaganda in the middle of war also turned to nationalism from just revolution and communism and globalism.

About your invitation - well, 3 and 6 are actually not so easy for me. I'd say these were present before Stalin, as in 3 would be basic Bolshevism, and 6 would be basic Marxism. 14 - see my first paragraph, it was (for Orwell) first and foremost inspired by USSR, and while Nazis or Italian fascists also had distinct public language (Klemperer's Lingua Tertii Imperii comes to mind), they never went as far.

If you support the side opposite to Russia, be it Ukraine or NATO, you sort of support Turkey, cause of the context of alliances and relations. Turkey is in NATO and Turkey is friendly with Ukraine.

Point is, we’re not talking about B/Turkey.

We actually are doing that right now. If you don't want to, you can leave this conversation. That's the way conversations work.

And B/Turkey being bad doesn’t mean that A/Russia is excused from their terrible behavior.

Yes, it isn't. You seem to imply that I said it is. I haven't.

And (gasp!) Just because I oppose A/Russia doesn’t mean I support B/Turkey.

Not in general. But in our specific situation you sort of do through that opposing side being Turkey's friend more than Russia itself.

The entire argument is bad faith and lacking any logic or critical thinking.

On all sides.

Now, about bad faith - if people like you yelling "whataboutism" can prevent a conversation on a certain subject, then it's not really whataboutism. If they can do that without preventing that conversation from happening, then maybe it is. "Whataboutism" is not a basic concept. Once we turn to logic instead of some list of common fallacies, we don't need it (and also logic beats any such shortcut).

Same with "critical thinking".

I've met plenty of Ukrainians, it's literally too common (notably more than for Russians in general, which is already an achievement) for them to ascribe personal traits to genes and thus characterize whole peoples as good or bad (I'm not doing that now, cause I'm talking about society and education). I mean, really, it irritates you.

The issue is that their idea of nationalism is not yet separate from typical Nazi one. Just much more moderate. It shows in various more nuanced conversations on ethnic conflicts, state policies on minorities, centralism, civil rights etc.

There's nuance to that, though generally correct, and you also don't have to make it, I think it's available for purchase.

This is about one particular unit with history of war crimes. Different national legions of Wehrmacht and even Waffen SS have different record. I'm aware of some not so bad.

but I can understand some Ukrainians considering them to be freedom fighters against the Soviets, especially in 2023

I can agree that some "forest brothers" in1960s really were freedom fighters. But these guys - sure as hell not.

Including most of their leaders, so the title of the post is correct. Yeah, surely every group of Nazi collaborators has its history.

They also willingly participated in mass murders of civilian population (Jewish and Polish). By "free and independent" the narrative also stuffs this.

So no, whoever put that there knew very well whom they are celebrating. They are just fine with ethnic cleansing for some perceived benefit of their nation.

Which can be shortened to "a memorial to Nazi collaborators", which is the title.

Shouldn't this be as simple as spraying something inflammable at the cloth and lighting it up? One needs a sprayer, a couple of canisters of gas (maybe diesel is better, though, cause gasoline evaporates too fast, various dangers due to it), and matches.

This particular kind of Nazi collaborators is actually all the rage now, since Western public has found THE conflict of our age in Russia's invasion of Ukraine, immediately conveniently forgetting all other conflicts and genocides going on where every Western power has consistently shat its pants. I'm pleasantly surprised that there is, in fact, outrage at this.

In Russian-speaking (those supposedly liberal) parts of Reddit everybody would be justifying this memorial. Cause most of people you'd consider liberal in Russia and Ukraine are in fact disgusted with Putin etc mostly because of weakness and lack of development and corruption.

Not because of any crimes, plenty of them support ethnic cleansing (say, supporting Russian central government against Chechnya is not cool anymore among them, but for most it was like 10 years ago) and even military aggression (say, Azeri aggression against Artsakh). They just want those things to look cool, and Putin's empire of decay, theft, incompetence and general despair is not what they'd like to see.

You know, a bit like people from Hungary/Poland/Baltics just love to say that Soviets were "worse than Nazis", and have that slightly hidden irritation at being reminded that there are Jewish people in the room.

but by the russian proletariat for the reestablishment of an RSFSR.

"Russian proletariat" is mostly ansyn or Trotskyist, when political, just informing you. EDIT: And also it's a very little portion of the society.

And most of those sporting Commie symbolic just use it cause USSR big, USSR strong, USSR everybody fear, USSR boom, but somehow later boom.

Turkey is a genocidal horde. Russia one could call controversial before 2022, now it's just miserable and on its way to becoming a trainwreck.

EDIT: What I meant - it's a good example, if you just call that "controversial" and not a problem to be solved now, while Russia somehow is.

No, it doesn't really, they just don't want to do anything. Everything happening in Ukraine started happening much later than Turkey happened.

And about NATO design not conceiving of something - when Turkey was admitted to NATO, there were people still alive who saw not their parents and grandparents, but their children and grandchildren killed before their eyes in 1915-1921.

It was conceived that if somebody really wanted to get rid of that thing, then it'd be possible to make a shortcut on paperwork with all the military power. 1952, remember. But then again, it was 1952, you know, colonial powers still being that and not caring much about genocides of brown people. So nobody would see Turkey's current behavior as a problem.

I don't think it's whataboutism to point out that a worse criminal you are fine with, and a smaller one not, because the latter kills "blue-eyed Europeans" and all that.

You can't just discard observations that you are a hypocritical bag of piss with that one word, "whataboutism". And it only refers to somebody defending their own crimes. Most of real whataboutism I see in social media comes from Turks and Westerners defending Turks.

Other than that, if somebody says that and you don't, I don't care if they're a tankie. Turkey is worse than a Stalinist dictatorship, and I have priorities.

Well, there's less bias typical for UK-funded sources than usual. At least Azerbaijan is not the same color as Armenia (thought the UK seem to have made a 180-degree turn on that conflict in the last couple of weeks, while keeping the same "formal"legal" position).

Ah, that's OT, about Russia - it would be purple on that map even before 2008.

Ukraine's being yellow is just wrong. It doesn't really matter if it's fair, but with the ongoing war and the effects of it on the society and its attitudes towards press the color should be orange.

You are a complete idiot.

I was condescending to a person insufficiently intelligent or humble, that is, you.

Natural languages are ambiguous, so when somebody better than you misreads what you wrote three times, it's your fault and if you also behave in such a way, then it's you who is a complete idiot.

Other than that, I don't know in which stable you've been bred.