Iran says it has right to defend itself after Israeli strike kills soldiers
the_toast_is_gone @ the_toast_is_gone @lemmy.world Posts 2Comments 357Joined 2 yr. ago
the_toast_is_gone @ the_toast_is_gone @lemmy.world
Posts
2
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357
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2 yr. ago
And raping/killing over 1,000 people and taking over 200 hostages is clearly the best way to achieve peace.
the same reason why the US funded Alquaeda.
I can't find a credible source confirming that. And even if they did, that wouldn't make Iran's funding of Hamas and Hezbollah any less genocidal. Fair point on the origins of Hamas, though.
And allowing Hamas to continue killing people with impunity isn't realistic either.
Alright. I learned a lot and enjoyed talking with you, and I hope you have a good rest of the week.
The old one is no longer relevant. ... They didn’t kill them because they were Jews. It was because they were Israelis.
Tell me, what percentage of Israel is Jews? And do you really think the antisemitic attitude has completely dissolved among Hamas?
Hezbolllah is more than capable of hitting Israeli targets. They’ve been pounding Haifa and even almost assassinated Netanyahu as well.
The surrounding nations have failed numerous times to extinguish Israel, going four-to-one against them and still losing. Not to mention their continued assaults on the country since. If they could wipe out Israel, they would have.
My opinion can be of both. A lot of the world thinks this way.
People don't say "you don't get a right to complain about X" unless they think the victim deserved it. Rape apologists are well known for this.
Nowhere in the article does it mention holding civilians by force.
We now have two sources corroborating the same phenomenon: the authorities not wanting Gazans to evacuate. The "American government propaganda" article has actual evidence backing it.
And yes, Hamas is going to be among civilians. They are Palestinians, and they are in one of the most densely populated areas by the force of Israel in what people have called the “largest open air prison.”
Does that justify using civilian garb, vehicles, and infrastructure to avoid getting attacked? Or alternately, using the whole Gaza Strip as a human shield while killing Israelis?
Because you’re using it to justify genocide. The article didn’t say evacuated. It said vacant.
The building was vacant because it was evacuated. You've been truthful in other areas, why not here? The article states this, and no, them not being rockets doesn't mean they also weren't withdrawn:
As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises
Anyway...
I explained what was debunked and what wasn’t. Stop bringing this shit up.
The only other people I've seen who go "this atrocity wasn't actually as bad as people say it is" are people who support it in some way. It's a slope towards justifying the whole thing. See Holocaust and Holodomor deniers. You'll forgive me for seeing a similar pattern here.
My point is simple: Israel has a right to defend itself. When they're provoked, they can retaliate. Killing more women and children intentionally is horrible, obviously. But if nothing is done, then the attacks will continue, increasing in severity. If you didn't want to argue over "minute points," you shouldn't have sent me 31 links and told me to read all of them. If you don't want to talk anymore, that's fine. Just as I've come away learning more about Israel's crimes, I hope you come away from this better understanding Hamas's actions. "They don't get to complain about it" isn't the stance someone takes on 1,200 people getting raped and killed without thinking it was justified.
the six day war? Literally yes.
Egypt knew that they'd be attacked if they blockaded Israel by sea and did it anyway. They then massed troops on the border, only to get whooped.
Yom Kippur was then started to take back the territory lost in the six day war.
Which was a war provoked by Egypt.
even if we accept that the PLO’s attack was anything but provoked by Israeli apartheid and ethnic cleansing,
Killing amassadors to foreign nations is obviously the correct solution to this sort of thing.
you do realize they didn’t just fight the PLO right?
Syria has a long history of waging war with Israel, so yes.
They then occupied a country that did nothing to them
Other than kill over 30 civilians in a kidnapping attempt and try to kill their ambassador.
causing among other things the creation of Hezbollah.
Which wouldn't be as strong today if Iran wasn't supplying them. Iran has also been an enemy of Israel for a long time.
You’re made-up idea that it’s about Jews and not Zionism also goes against the actions and remarks of the founder of Hamas
They're the ones that included a quote encouraging the killing of Jews - not Zionists - in the original charter. They're also the ones who went on to commit, among numerous other attacks, October 7th. Do you not see the connection here? If there were any reforms, they've obviously failed.
De-development via the Gaza Occupation
Even today, Hamas is misusing humanitarian aid, and they've been known to do this for years.
Peace Process and Solution
At least two analyses have concluded that Hamas only wants ceasefires as a means to destroying Israel in the long term. An organization that genuinely wants a two-state solution doesn't provoke its neighbors by killing over a thousand people and taking over 200 hostages.
I don't think you get to call the killings an accident when they went there to kidnap a bunch of people. If I break into someone's house to kidnap a woman and I end up shooting her husband, that doesn't make it any less a murder.
It's been a long and bloody conflict since Israel's inception. But does any of this justify Hamas and Hezbollah killing/kidnapping Israeli civilians? Hamas wasn't forced to do October 7th, or to fire off over 10,000 rockets since then. Hezbollah wasn't forced to fire off rockets in solidarity with them. Neither of those things is stopping the cycle of violence. To suggest the onus is entirely on Israel is absolving these two literal terrorist groups of their responsibilities.
First off, you haven't answered my question about why Iran is funding Hamas and Hezbollah if they don't want genocide. Second, the PLO still exists. Supporting Hamas was a massive failure, but they didn't do it to kill their own people.
No, it doesn't.
Not anymore, but their original charter cites the verse. That spirit obviously lives on in the modern militant movement, because they've been killing civilians even after the apparent "reforms."
Unless you’re able to provide a level of oppression, ethnic cleansing, systemic genocide, mass displacement, and regular human abuse and rights violations similar to what I showed Israel does, this argument of yours is useless.
The reason these haven't happened at the same scale is because Israel is quite capable of fighting off its attackers. If Hamas and Hezbollah had the same military quality that Israel has, Israel wouldn't exist today.
I’m not going to justify civilian deaths and atrocities.
But also according to you:
Palestinians have every right to hate Israelis. And Israelis have no right to cry about it.
Which is it?
The source is the American government.
Do you prefer this source written by Michael Georgy, an Egyptian correspondent? Egypt is no friend of America. Also, is this American propaganda? Or is it only American propaganda when it says something you don't like?
Tell you what. Here's a few more pieces showing Hamas hiding behind the veil of civilian garb and infrastructure: One; Two; Three; Four. It's obviously been a part of their strategy. Do you think it's changed? If so, why?
The very link you provided said that a later investigation confirmed it wasn’t rockets. Oh, and the school was vacant.
The article states:
As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises. ... the Board concluded that it was highly likely that a Palestinian armed group might have used the premises to hide weapons but was unable to confirm with certainty what type of weapon might have been hidden at the school.
So it wasn't rockets specifically, but still weapons. And the building was vacant because it was evacuated. Why are you getting caught up on semantics like this but missing other major details in the same article?
Your source is the IDF.
Actually, the quote I mentioned with that link to The Guardian references Al-Aqsa TV, which is run by Hamas. Based on his author page, Peter Beaumont is not a paid shill of the IDF. Or again, is it only hostile propaganda when it argues against Hamas's indiscriminate killings?
That’s not an excuse for the blockade and deliberately starving an entire population, we wouldn’t accept it anywhere else.
According to the Palestinian Authority, aid is being stolen by Hamas and sold to civilians at very high prices. Given that the article describes them congratulating Hamas on the October 7th attack, I don't think they're being paid off by Israel when they say this. Either way, Hamas's theft of aid is contributing to the ongoing conditions there.
Yes, and they also have a long history of issuing evacuation orders and then bombing the place within minutes, bombing refugee camps and so called “safe zones”, attacking civilians fleeing, and more.
Would it be better if they didn't order an evacuation at all? That would get a lot more Palestinians killed, and would result in an even more severe genocide. Or would you rather they enter into urban combat against a foe that hides behind civilians and stores weapons in civilian buildings? Or should they simply lie down and accept Hamas shooting up their citizens and firing off indiscriminate rockets into their territory?
Palestinians have every right to hate Israelis. And Israelis have no right to cry about it.
This line along with the whole "October 7th isn't as bad as you seem to think" thing has big "it didn't happen but they deserved it" vibes.
The majority of my friends are online. The internet has connected me with people who broaden my horizons, help me learn interesting and important things, and grow as a person. You don't need to know someone in-person for that to happen anymore. IRL friendships will always be better, all other things being equal, but they're not the only solution.
Yes, I attributed that verse to Hamas, because Hamas believed in it when they put it in their charter. Evidently, they still hate Jews enough to kill their civilians throughout that time period. Regardless of their reforms, October 7th still happened, as have numerous other killings of Israeli civilians. That's pretty clear evidence Hamas militants still hold the belief. Do all Muslims believe Jews should be killed this way? No, and I doubt even a majority of them want that. But Hamas encoded it into their charter. That's indisputable history.
But apparently they thought raping Jews would help. Look where that attack landed them.
Depending on how far back you want to go, the Jews had lived in Israel for a long, long time before even their revolt against Hadrian in 135 AD. As for the first colonists returning to the territory in the 19th and 20th centuries, those Jews were facing persecution in their homelands.
Did Israel provoke the Suez Crisis? Did Israel provoke the Six-Day War? Or the Yom Kippur War? The 1982 Lebanon War? All of the times that militant groups have attacked Israeli civilians?
I'd be quite fine with most of this, all of it if by "the occupation" you mean the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. But, until peace is established there, that isn't going to happen. The majority of Gazans support Hamas and believe they committed no atrocities on October 7th.
If Iran isn't interested in the genocide, why do they fund and arm Hamas and Hezbollah? And Israel supported Hamas as an opposition to the PLO, which was a major terrorist organization at the time. Do you think they intentionally created Hamas as an excuse to get their own people bombed?
Apparently Hamas didn't moderate themselves enough to not kill 1,200 people on October 7th.
Al-Qaeda themselves deny that they received funding from the US. Now, why is Iran funding genocidal terrorist groups acceptable? Can you answer that without saying "well the US is doing it too," or is this whole conflict tit-for-tat?