Mia @ shy_mia @lemmy.blahaj.zone

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1 yr. ago

A fan of the USSR I see...
Totalitarianism is bad, period. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It would not be any better in the long run.

Wikipedia is about to become a really weird place...

That would not be democratic. It would be the exact same thing the GOP wants to do. Left branded totalitarianism would still be totalitarianism.

Look, you either kill rats or kill people. I love animals, it's unfortunate we need to experiment on them, but it's also naive to think we can make progress without doing it. At best one could make an argument for death row inmates to be experimented on, but that would be quickly shut down as unethical and there wouldn't be enough anyway. There is no way around animal testing, we can only keep it to a minimum.

Generally one should wipe anyways before using a bidet

Is there something I'm missing here? Why would you expect to be able to do bitwise operations on floats and get a sensible value? And if you want to do integer bitwise operations... you still can? Just use integer values and the bitwise operators?

No that's my point. You can't, because there's no such thing as an integer value. It's all floats, always. They get casted to integers, the binary operation is done, then they get converted back to floats. That's a lossy process, so some binary operations with certain values are simply not possible and you get weird results. The max width of an integer you can store is 53 bits, the maximum addressable width is 32 bits for binary operations. That's wonky.

This is patently false. JS has sets, maps, etc...

Ah yes I forgot sets. But I don't think there's anything else? Last time I checked there were no binary trees, no proper (ring buffer) queues, no ordered sets, but I may be wrong on that. It's not enough imo for a proper standard library.

For everything else:

My point is that JS is an okay scripting language for the web. As I said, for that it's perfectly fine, though the frameworks are often lacking imo. But there is this tendency to use it to create backends, desktop applications and tooling. That's where the language falls apart, because it's not made for that. It needs to be more robust, well defined and fully featured to be used in those contexts, both in terms of JS itself, and its standard library. Same with TS.

You seem to be confused about what JS is. It's a high-level interpreted language. It's not C.

I know and that's the point. It's underspecified for things outside the web, so it's terrible for those use-cases. You can make it work for Node, but not for Bun or any other runtime. And even then, the experience is acceptable at best.

I personally would never use it for such use-cases, but people keep touting it and TS as these amazing general purpose languages you can do anything in. You can, but you really shouldn't.

That's what people with skill issues tend to say.

Not that's what people who can recognize genuine architectural defects and aren't blind fanboys say.

You apparently still bitch and whine like a rookie.

Only to your eyes since apparently pointing out genuine problems is whining. It's okay for people not to like the stuff you like. And no, using a few swear words for emphasis doesn't make someone immature, nor does listing what one has worked with for context.

You learned how to write == in every other language, but you can't figure out === in typescript?

...you still haven't realised that === is not what I have a problem with have you? It's literally a non issue. In fact, equality in general is a non issue. It's the wonky standard library, lack of proper support for binary operations, serialization and almost everything being an afterthought that I have a problem with. Does it prevent me from using the language and write proper, stable software? No. But it's not good.

you install a whole web browser alongside operating system shims into your project

Except that amounts to a mere ~180_000 lines of the 3 million. Did a plain create-react-app without Electron, still over 3 million.

Now, since it's impossible to have a genuine conversation if the other party's response is "haha you suck" to any genuine, documented criticism, are you gonna grow up or are you gonna keep acting like an offended 13 year old who can't find a better retort?

Ah that's fine. There's nothing wrong with abstraction, until it becomes too much.

Anything that isn't plain web browser stuff.

You can't write files without Node specific APIs.
You can't even do proper bitwise operations because everything's a float.
Binary serialization is a pain and proper deserialization in general is not enforced, even in TypeScript, because types are an illusion.
Up until recently there were no synchronization primitives, though now the idea of having them in JS seems terrifying.
There are no other data structures than arrays and maps, which are often not enough.

It's just not a language I'd use for anything more than... well... Scripting. But even though other, better solutions exist for cross platform development, people insist on using JS, so here we are.

I can understand accounting for different environments. That's unfortunately unavoidable. But I found web framework developers in particular have a weird tendency of piling up ungodly amounts of abstractions just for the sake of it.

It's kind of a cultural problem in modern software development in general imo. It's not limited to web dev by any means, but it's particularly bad there because JS lends itself to it quite well.

I had to go back to working with React just recently. I'm technically using TS, but the standard library is the same anyways. It hardly has everything imo.
It does have what it needs to interface with the browser, and quite a few -sometimes poorly thought out- facilities, but not much more.

Don't get me wrong, for a web scripting language it's plenty, but if one wants to use JS for stuff that isn't just putting a simple page on a screen, that's not enough.

Maybe you mean Node instead of JS?

It definitely isn't in some circumstances.
Frankly I'd put C/C++ in a similar category when it comes to compilation.
Dealing with Make, CMake, linkage and all that can be a nightmare.
The ecosystem is a little bit better though in my opinion. If nothing else you get a proper standard library and don't have to rely on thousands of dependencies to get anything done... or you often roll your own if you are in C... which is meh.

I find Rust, C#, Go and anything slightly more modern to be a great or at least good experience.
Python as well if you use venv and your runtime and package versions align.

My point is, there is no perfect platform and ecosystem, but the web is generally regarded as one of the poorest.
I'm not saying someone can't enjoy working on web stuff, they most certainly can. But it is objectively overcomplicated.

You seem to confuse "people making mistakes" with "a language that is designed in such a way that those mistakes are not only common, but integral part of the experience."

I'm not saying I make such mistakes, I say the design is crap. It's not a skill issue, it's a design issue. People say null pointers were a mistake. I'm inclined to agree. Not because I get a null pointer exception every five minutes, but because there are better ways to handle cases like that.

You said I was a rookie, I proved you wrong.
You said there was nothing crazy about web application complexity, I provided you with a common, glaring example. There's nothing unhinged in saying "look I installed Electron and React and not my project has 3 million lines of crap I have to worry about".
Everything else was just emphasis for the sake of it.

But when you don't have a valid argument, you resort to personal attacks. Maybe it's you that should learn to be better.

Lmao bruh, tell me you’ve never coded in a different language without saying you’ve never coded in a different language.

I've been a software developer for over 10 years, on both on the front end and the back end.
I've worked with jQuery, React, plain old DOM manipulation, god damn PHP. I'm not new to web development.

Outside of web technologies, I've worked on nautical charts processing software and microcontroller firmware in C, C++ and Rust.
I've worked on native GUI applications with C++, Java and C# using JavaFX, WPF, GTK, Qt.
All under strict corporate standards.
I also work on compilers and rendering engines in my spare time.

So no, I'm not a "junior programmer" making "basic junior programming mistakes". Your favourite language is ass.
You shouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that someone has never written a line of code only because they say so.
Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but even senior developers, web or otherwise, say it. I'm not the one swimming against the current, you are.

And lmao, oh my god the web ecosystem is ass because a framework for producing robust complex applications isn’t just an html and CSS file?

Alright, let's do a little experiment, shall we? Let's try and create an empty electron app with React and TypeScript.
A quick create-electron-app and some configuring TS, ESLint and WebPack later we reach a whopping 3_087_725 lines of code. 3 million lines. ~700MB.
This all requires a linting step, a pre-compilation step though tsc, multiple additional translation steps through webpack for older ES versions.
All of that for an empty page on a webview.

This is batshit crazy. And I come from fucking CMake for crying out loud.
There is nothing robust about this, the slightest misstep and your sourcemaps are fucked.
Whoops the author of left-pad decided to pull it from npm - half the JS ecosystem on its knees.
Whoops the author of is-even one day decides it's a stupid package to need - half the JS ecosystem on its knees.

Web developers are standing on a crumbling, fermenting pile of shit. Get over it.
...
With that said, you can still enjoy JS and all the web stuff, there's nothing wrong with that...

People dislike JS because it's packed full of moronic footguns and technical debt. The "standard library" is full of baffling decisions and, much like the language, rarely does what you expect. Even its creator agrees it's a terrible language and should have been replaced by now.

TypeScript is better, but at the end of the day it's just an illusion. Add an any anywhere, which will happen, and you're back to square one. It also still inherits some of the weirdness of JS, because it is just JS with fake types bolted on. Plus, the amount of work one has to do to create a proper library with TypeScript support completely undermines the few advantage of JavaScript. Might as well use a real statically typed language at that point, at least you'd be sure your types are actually enforced.

Also, the whole web ecosystem is ass. The hoops one has to jump through nowadays to do web development are absolutely batshit crazy. And no, having a create-whatever that sets things up for you is not a real solution.

It's not really the same thing though, those are filesystem snapshots, not package registry snapshots. Think of Nix generations as blueprints of how to construct your OS and environment, not the files themselves (though those are certainly required). I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but it's a lot more powerful than what basically amounts to a backup.

Definitely more stable than Arch. Plus, you can easily roll back if something breaks, and you can choose which packages should use the unstable branch while keeping the overall system stable, which I find amazing. I don't think I've ever had a breaking update, which I can't say about Arch.

The problem I have with Nix is that you can effectively forget about running random programs or GitHub projects. You either package everything the Nix way or nothing works. As a developer and someone who often likes to try stuff out, that's really annoying. And Nix, the language, is ass, so is the whole build system. Nobody can convince me otherwise.

You didn't need to post this.

Yes, it's the most stable yet infuriating experience I've ever had with Linux. I'm currently using it, but I don't know for how much longer...

You keep making up extreme scenarios, none of which have materialized, even in North America, because again: most people are reasonable when it comes to that stuff.

No matter how much right wing groups insist on it, it's a made up reality meant to spread disdain. Queer visibility has increased in the last few years, but just like anything, it will plateau, much like left-handedness has plateaued after a while after people stopped being forced to be right-handed.

The worst offender, and the only real/relevant example I can find when it comes to forced inclusivity, is Disney, and nearly everybody hates it because... well... it's forced, including minorities. But they do it to avoid backlash from very few but vocal people on Twitter that have nothing better to do.That, and it generates media coverage, which is free publicity.

I believe you're just being paranoid, but you do you. I feel like trying to convince you otherwise would be a waste of time at this point.
Good luck with your endeavours...