Palestine-Israel Crisis Megathread
probablyaCat @ probablyaCat @kbin.social Posts 0Comments 187Joined 2 yr. ago
probablyaCat @ probablyaCat @kbin.social
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So all of Israel is a colonial state? What should happen with it and it's over 9 million people? Of which almost half are middle eastern (I'm only including several generations middle eastern here, obviously we have people that are 3 or 4th generation Israeli, but I am not sure what your threshold is for being considered a native of an area). Then another 2.5 percent are beta Israel. So let's just say half are middle eastern or African. What should happen with this colonial state?
While I won't argue in support of the amount of force Israel is using, I am curious what you believe they should do. For this current situation and the whole situation at large.
I'll be honest. Most Americans don't even realize Roma are a real group of people. They hear gypsy and think crystal balls and magic. The population is much smaller and more integrated in the US than in Europe so many have never met someone from that group. But I mean if you want the honest answer, a person that looks white in America is considered white until a reason is given otherwise. Maybe a name. Maybe a symbol. Maybe they say something. My youngest son can pass for white easily. Asheknazi jews are white by current american standards, but I don't see white southern baptists churches needing armed security during service. And I'm one generation shy of when Jews weren't allowed in to certain places.
Race is weird in America. And Americans are very touchy about it on both sides. I think it's because it's built on a house of cards, but so many fundamental things revolve around it. Racial justice on the left. Umm... other things on the right. Like racism is definitely real. I can make it through police checkpoints without getting stopped, while my wife gets stopped every time. But Americans like to pretend there is some true hard standard when it is all a wobbly social construct.
And my questions on race and who qualifies as white? Because I'm guessing you consider yourself a very anti-racist person. But that shit was racist as fuck.
sorry this was a response for a different post.
It is always interesting seeing a person be so blatantly racist and not realize it.
Jews have had people there pretty much that entire time. Under the Roman empire, under the Byzantine, under Arabs, under the Ottoman empire, under the British empire.
You seem to know very little about the region. The way you speak of race is certainly American. Not sure how you think the Polish, much less Polish Jews, were treated in the past, but I can assure you it wasn't as a white person.
Further, the Sephardi chief rabbi is middle eastern by any definition (born in Israel, parents born in Iraq). The Ashkenazi chief rabbi is the son of a polish born Holocaust survivor.
There are at least 3.2 Mizrahi Jews in Israel although recent studies suggest around 44% of the population. That means Jews from Israel or the surround middle eastern areas. Are middle easterners white now?
Jews might be considered white in America (sometimes). But what is white in America does not apply to the rest of the world. Even Europe doesn't share the same attitude, I assure you.
It didn't start as a European settler project. Europe was in control of the region post WWI so Jews lobbied in Europe and in the US. Many of which were Mizrahi and/or already having lived in mandate Palestine.
I'm sure you don't even realize what you're saying is racist, but it is. If a person with black parent(s) can pass as white, are they also white? Is their a paper bag test for Jews too? What about one drop? Are all Africans black? Do you know what an average person from Yemen looks like? Egypt? Why didn't Polish and German Jews just be pretend not to be Jewish during the Holocaust since they are white?
Since the human population shares at least two common areas that all current humans came from, how many generations must a group of people exist in a place to say they are descendants of that place? If a person is a jew by birth through European heritage, but is blacker than Obama, and moves to Israel are they a white European Jew or a black minority? Is Bashar al-assad white? Viktor Orban? Gabriel Boric?
Please, can you answer those questions?
I'm curious what disinformation you're talking about given what you quoted? And you implied that it is known, but why do you think said disinformation would be spread?
Also, there are no settlers in Gaza. Haven't been for around 18 years.
Umm I don't think they care. They have a monopoly on amateur video hosting and only make money off of it with ads. If you are watching without ads or premium then you are costing them money. They do not care about your outrage. This isn't reddit where it might have caused a long term permanent degradation to their content, the people posting stuff want you to pay or have ads as well. Users do not act as moderators or content providers (I mean I'm sure most content providers are users as well but they want ad revenue). They have just ignored ad blocking for long enough to get monopolies in their areas (browser, YouTube) and are now getting rid of that problem. I'm honestly amazed at how they took over the browser market. Almost everything is chromium based now. Even email. They may not have a monopoly, but they certainly made themselves the standard.
Tldr: they aren't doing it slow for fear of outrage. They did it slow to get a monopoly.
Locked Removed
Can I ask why this sub is so fucking liberal?
Jump
Pre-K and kindergarten probably.
So a one state solution?
Kind of my point.
Got it. So there should be one pan Arab state and Israel should cease to exist as well. And when that happens, what you're saying, is that all will be well in the region?
From the beginning I've said only that Hamas doesn't exist merely because of Israel.
And it isn't 100%. Your mind is apparently to narrow to see other possibilities. Israel could've had no restrictions post 2005 and they could've been more violent. Obtained more weapons. Blown up more buses and civilians. Fired more rockets. Hell, let's take it further. They could've agreed to everything the Palestinians wanted in negotiations. And it could've resulted in a country that immediately declares war on them with trade support from the surrounding countries that had attacked Israel on multiple occasions. Or even further, as I've stated multiple times, the Muslim brotherhood has offshoots all throughout the region and is known to be militaristic and problematic in almost all of those countries.
You think I somehow agreed with you? You are just a naive fool. This attack happened because Hamas perpetrated it. No more. No less. And as long terrorism is their method of negotiation, they will never know peace. In fact, they will likely only be weakening their positions in any peace process. Because now, I guarantee any agreement for sovereignty will be contingent on no attacks as a basic starting point. And any act that violates it would make the agreement null and void.
Israel exists and will continue to do so. Hamas, on the other hand, would not be the first terrorist organization to be dismantled and made inconsequential or non-existent. Palestinians have a right to a safe and secure life. Perhaps if Hamas is wiped out, negotiations will start again.
On multiple occasions the Palestinian governments could have formed an internationally recognized state. At the camp David accords with Clinton, 98% of the land they asked for. Lots of money. But they stopped the negotiations.
And Hamas was put into power due to the promise of using violence to get rid of Israel after the PA said it would renounce violence.
No. You're wrong and disgusting. The attack is on the attackers. They chose to attack. They did have other options. You can debate if the restrictions Israel has put on Gaza has made the peace process worse and has made the lives of Palestinians worse. That's fine. But Hamas launched this attack. A group put in to power by the Palestinian people. And this was their choice. And now thousands are dead as a result. And I am fearful of the long term consequences for both sides.
Again, I've pointed out that the parent organization has existed since 1928 and has branches in multiple countries of the region. Not to mention the ongoing support from Lebanon and Iran for Hamas in particular. So even if Israel ceased to exist Hamas is likely to exist. Even if Israel never existed, whatever group was in control of that area, would still likely be dealing with an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood.
I actually know the history of the organization. Yet I am ignorant. I feel like I'm probably correcting someone who has likely never lived in a world with the twin towers.
You said it exists because of Israel. That is just untrue. Has Israel done things that exacerbated the problem? Definitely. But that is miles away from what you're saying. And worse for what you're implying.
Ok the first one is definitely a hit piece, but I agree with it in general. I'm sure that Bibi and his friends decided to negotiate with Hamas because it put the full peace talks on hold. But it is ignoring that it allowed for them to work for better wages and get necessary supplies in return for a more peaceful relationship. And had they completely blocked things they'd be further criticized for that. I don't like Bibi or Likud. Don't agree with several of their platforms or conclusions they have reached. That being said, I think it would be unfair not to discuss those conclusions. They have concluded that a full Palestinian state would be more like the situation with Gaza than with the west bank. In fact, before he was PM Bibi said the following concerning the disengagement from Gaza
Only we in the Knesset are able to stop this evil. Everything that the Knesset has decided, it is also capable of changing. I am calling on all those who grasp the danger: Gather strength and do the right thing. I don't know if the entire move can be stopped, but it still might be stopped in its initial stages. [Don't] give [the Palestinians] guns, don't give them rockets, don't give them a sea port, and don't give them a huge base for terror.
And it became exactly that all while he wasn't in charge.
They do not believe Palestine will be peaceful if they get full statehood, but they will be a sovereign territory which will complicate matters even more. I disagree with this conclusion, but it isn't nearly as nefarious as you're implying.
The second thing just belongs in the same realm as other conspiracy theories. Neither Palestine or Israel argue he was assassinated. France, where he was treated, state he wasn't assassinated. At most a swiss group says maybe it happened. The funny thing is, the theory is that he was assassinated because he stood in the way of peace and they wanted a new guy to negotiate with after camp David (which is why they negotiated with Abbas in 02-03).
Perhaps they are further fueled by orphans and widows. But that doesn't mean they exist due to Israel. The Muslim brotherhood has offshoots in multiple countries in the region and has existed since 1928.
So how is it Hamas, an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood, existing is the fault of Israel? You'd have a much more sound argument blaming the British. Whose control of Egypt of Mandate Palestine led to a lot of this shit. What you haven't done is made any effort to support your hyperbolic claim.
And how do you figure that? Israel withdrew from Gaza while it was still under the PA as an attempt to work at peace. The plan was to do the same in the west bank next. Plan goes through. Hamas was an offshoot of the Muslim brotherhood without any political authority up to that point. Prior it was formed because they were against any peace accords that were occuring at the time. But after Israel withdrew, they almost immediately had an election in which Hamas was given power. And they stuck to their promise of continuing to use violence in order to obtain a state instead of working as part of the peace process. This is when the blockade began.
So are you just saying that due to the fact that Israel exists that Hamas exists? Even that is probably not true. The Muslim brotherhood has a long history prior to Hamas in that region. It is highly likely that even if the whole place had become the state of Palestine, then the same people would do the same shit as they did in Egypt.
So how is it that Hamas existing is the fault of Israel?
- Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas minister of culture
-Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council
- Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader
-Hamas communiqué