probablyaCat @ probablyaCat @kbin.social

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2 yr. ago

See people always say this, but it isn't some universal truth. Often people get exhausted and would prefer a shaky peace with a compromise over writing about random bombs and rockets.

The IRA and Ireland (I've often seen people comparing Hamas to the IRA situation, but just imagine if the IRA had been demanding not only a united Ireland, but they also wanted England, Scotland, and Wales too). ETA and basque country. Although there are a lot more extremist groups in that region that could take hold, I will admit. Which is why Israel is likely planning on a wider more strict dmz until peace can be agreed upon and sustained. And if it cannot, then Gaza should probably work on their Egyptian diplomatic relations and a 3 state solution is more likely here.

Because even if you want to think bad things about Israel's government, they are working hard on diplomacy in the region and do not want repeated war with Gaza to sidetrack it. They were supposed to have diplomatic talks with Saudi Arabia until Hamas attacked them. Already have them with several Arab league nations. A large dmz, Hamas removed from power, and Gaza being forced to work with Egypt might accomplish that.

My solution is to remove Hamas from any authority. Let them be replaced with a more reasonable authority (Fatah was supposed to have a united government with them but Hamas wouldn't actually do it). Stabilize and secure my country. And then try to help rebuild Gaza and negotiate firm borders with Palestine.

Now there are definitely people in the Israeli government who don't believe it can and/or should happen. I know the history of Likud and Begin. I'm aware of the ideas of Revisionist Zionism and Jabotinsky (not really a fan btw). It's safe to say that if I had been around at the time I definitely would've been with the lefty socialist Jews, not with the right wingers. Although even Bibi signed on to Oslo iirc.

I understand that the situation is fucked. But when you are in a fucked situation, you have to deal with it given the constraints of it being fucked. I understand some people on both sides may have bad intentions. But Hamas is platformed as opposed to peace. With Israel, that situation is not the same. Just as the Gaetz doesn't represent the entire US government, neither does ben Gvir. Israel is a developed state with a secular government and the majority are not out to take over all of Palestine.

Honestly the big difference in opinion here lies in the fact that a lot of people here who are against Israel and screaming genocide really just don't say what they actually think. That they think Jews have no right to be in Israel and that they should pick up and leave. They know nothing about the history of the region and they just parrot the same shit.

Where did I say anything about them having carte blanche to oppress? Where did I say their oppression gave them any rights? I didn't. I said that why9 was disgusting for what they said and explained why.

And no. I do not think Hamas is only in power due to things Israel has done. Beyond existing. The Muslim brotherhood existed before Israel. They have spring up in most countries that have a major Muslim population as Islamic extremists. They want a unified Muslim state under Sharia law. Even if Israel did not exist, Hamas would likely still exist in the region in some form telling the ruling powers they aren't Islamic enough. And killing people. Gay people. Women who want to have equal rights. Atheists. People who decide they don't want to be Muslim. World leaders who sign peace treaties.

Yeah it's pretty accepted now that the harsh punishments post WWI created the perfect environment for ww2. But it is also accepted that appeasement to Germany to prevent ww2 was a really bad idea as well. Parallels only go so far. I was not drawing a parallel in my above comment. I was explaining how very different the Holocaust was from the Palestinian territories.

Umm violence ended pretty much every war. Civil war and slavery and all that (in the U.S.). WW2 (that ending was real violent). Non-violence is definitely preferable, but it isn't always an option.

If you think that is an adequate description of the history of the area then your problem is clearly a total lack of education or research on the topic.

First, we need a starting point. At what point in history should we consider the people living in the region as indigenous? Concerning the open air prison, that's mostly used in reference to Gaza. So did Israel put them there or are they indigenous? Also, they have a border with Egypt too. Why is that border not working out?

I'm not naive. I am fully aware that the entire region has a very complicated history. One that you can't distill into a couple of lazy catch phrases. And there is a mix of good and bad things for everyone involved. You say Israel treats then as second class. Have you ever read the Hamas charter? Especially the pre 2017 charter. See what it says about women, Jews, religion. See what it implies about LGBT rights.

You call me naive. But, ask yourself, what history do you know of the region. And what are things you're just parroting?

I'm an idiot. For knowing that the plan was to leave Gaza entirely, then leave the West bank with some settlements being dismantled and some to be dealt with in future negotiations. But the catastrophe that was the Gaza withdrawal halted that plan entirely.

And third holiest site in Islam. But the temple mount which Jews are kept from visiting most of the time, is the holiest site in Judaism. Which is why I said don't pretend it is only al aqsa.

I'm clearly a supporter of Israel. But I try to understand multiple sides. Doesn't mean I have to think every side is right. Concerning the temple mount and al aqsa, I would prefer both groups get along and share. I don't like Bibi and loathe ben Gvir. And while I absolutely do think continuing ahead with a withdrawal plan for west bank would've made Israel less safe, I do wish they hadn't increased settlements.

How am I being pedantic, and I've responded to almost everyone who actually said what they would do.

The Holocaust involved the Nazis gathering up whole populations, unprovoked, and sending them to ghettos, concentration camps, and then extermination camps. While the world population has nearly quadrupled since WW2, the Jewish population only just reached their pre-holocaust levels recently. They starved them, worked them to death, tortured and experimented on them, and then tried to murder the rest en masse with gas.

Gaza certainly has a blockade. And I do not approve of everything that Israel does, even when I can understand the rationale. But let us be absolutely clear. That blockade is absolutely less controlled than even the ghettos of Warsaw. Not to mention, they share a border with an entirely different country with whom they have been free to form diplomatic relations with and could have had freedom of movement, supplies, etc through for 18 years now. Longer, really but I'll use the minimum value. But they haven't even done that. Why? Because the group from Hamas formed also performed terrorism in Egypt.

At no point has any of this been unprovoked. At no point has this looked anything like Auschwitz. I have repeatedly seen the population density of Gaza brought up (6,507/km2). The Warsaw ghetto had 450,000 people in 3 km2. So in case you don't like math, that's about 150,000/km2.

Auschwitz, which apparently I shouldn't mention but I'm going to, had at least 1.3 million prisoners. At least 1.1 million were killed. That was one camp out of several.

The situation in Gaza is terrible and sad. But you don't get say it is the same as the Holocaust. That Israel is doing the same thing. This isn't unprovoked. Even now, they are holding hostages. They've continued to fire rockets. They have dug up their own infrastructure to make rockets. At no point have they even tried to be self sufficient. Nor have they tried... not attacking Israel. Attacking Israel (actually, attacking the Jews more generally according to the charter), establishing an Islamic state in the entire region and removing Israel from the map. That's the platform on which Hamas was elected. Show me where the Jews of Europe took over Poland and attacked Germany. Show me where Germany dealt with those attacks for decades, including providing utilities and healthcare to Poland during that time.

I will not attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. I will assume you are simply an uneducated fool who wants to push a narrative, rather than a malicious antisemite. The un-cited number of deaths (I'm guessing the only source you'll find is the Hamas government... the one that said over 500 died after Israel bombed a hospital a couple days back) that you stated don't even compare to just the Warsaw Ghetto. The death toll for the entire conflict in Israel and Palestine don't even compare to just the deaths in the Warsaw Ghetto. The situation is entirely different. Your statement is absolutely disgusting and you should feel ashamed. You can argue and oppose Israel's tactics. You can even argue that this fits some definitions of ethnic cleansing if you want. But you don't get to say what you said without being an absolutely disgusting person.

Yeah. Mostly it is contract work. Orgasm Uber, if you will.

You are apparently unaware of what intelligence services and special forces do. This isn't an episode of 24. They aren't using their spy satellites and increasing resolution. And spending special forces into a densely populated area where they would be quickly observed and attacked would just cause them to be killed. Here you can check out about the battle of Mogadishu.

I'm not in support of civilian casualties. I am not in support of war. But when war is brought to you, you cannot just ignore it. Life isn't a video game. And when you are in charge, every decision could alter the outcome. Special forces cannot put up their hoods and walk with their heads down to disappear into the crowd like this is Assassin's creed. Special forces work when they are not suspecting you, and when there is a possibility for small precise attacks making major changes.

There is no question that Israel aims to completely remove Gaza's ability to attack Israel for a long time. Everything else is people arguing over the level of malice. Israel has tried different solutions to stopping attacks. And certainly some people in power use the instability to remain in power on both sides. But, historically, that has not been the majority of Israelis or the government there. The situation after they left Gaza actually put more of those people into power (such as Bibi, who absolutely called what would happen in Gaza... as much as I hate to admit it).

Here is what we know. A big olive branch was rejected and exploited. Waiting it out and dealing with attacks on an individual basis, setting up security precautions, and diplomacy with outside Arab countries has so far failed and allowed for the third biggest terrorist attack in history. They are using what is militarily called rapid dominance. This includes a strong display of force that demoralizes and destabilizes an enemies ability to fight. It aims to reduce the casualties of the ground forces that come after and to shorten the length of the war overall. And that second part is also important here. Israel is a small country. They might be much more advanced, but they still have to deal with all of the same problems as any army concerning morale and resources. What happens if they instead lead with a ground force, but the war drags on and civilians are still dying, but this time it is because wars dragging on also destabilize and cause issues. On top of that, your military is now much weaker and exhausted. And you still have countries outside of Palestine that want to destroy you too.

But all you can see is what is happening. You aren't actually thinking about the results of alternatives.

First a response then I'll answer your question. Read up on the camp David accords with Clinton. The Israelis were offering like 91% of the land back the green line and trying to find some middle ground concerning Jerusalem. But especially read up about the 2004-05 withdrawal from Gaza. They did with Gaza what you are suggesting with the west bank. And it become a breeding ground for terrorist attacks. Originally the plan was Gaza first, as an olive branch, then the west bank, then further peace negotiations to establish firm borders. But the outcome with Gaza was horrific and all political capital was lost. And Hamas has stated it will not negotiate and will not accept peace deals negotiated by the PA. You cannot suggest things that have been tried and pretend that the past didn't happen and that things will just work out. Israel has been there, done that.

So acknowledging the real world history of the situation, if I was in charge, then the goal is to change the playing field. Israel did this with Gaza before with the wall they are oft criticized for building. And it stopped all the suicide bombings that had been happening. So I'd have two goals. An even more secure border, probably talking a dmz area, and to wipe out as many known Hamas officials as I possibly can. Their power structure must be so disrupted that they it will take extended time for any organization to happen. This allows for other people (probably Fatah would be the goal) to replace them. Make it clear that my country is going nowhere and that the other side needs a new plan if they want security. After doing these things, then and only then, do we go back to the negotiating table. Do I like these things? No. But again history and my responsibilities. History tells us this can work. General Sherman. WWII with Japan. Is it a guarantee to work? No. But the status quo definitely does not work. And my responsibility is first to provide security for the people in my country. I would certainly take notes from ww2 concerning the rebuilding efforts, but that also required unconditional surrender from the Japanese. So long as there was peace, my government would be first in line to offer assistance (which was an established thing between the PA and Israel... But Hamas changed that. In fact it was their main platforms and why they were elected).

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the same group of people who, on video, showed how they dig up pipes to use for rockets right?

So you're calling for ethnic cleansing then?

Also I don't downvote anyone really. And I'm kbin so I doubt it'd show up if I did.

So again, this is what you wouldn't do. What would you do? Do you understand the question? Not sure if I'm being clear enough here. It seems everyone is an expert on the situation in Israel and Palestine until you ask for specifics. So I'm specifically asking What would you do if you were in charge of Israel at the moment?

1. They did that. In Gaza. And it went really poorly if you haven't noticed. Which is actually why settlement in the West Bank started getting much stronger support within the government and from the population at large. So now you're fighting the war on two fronts?
2. Don't pretend like it's only Al-Aqsa. Also, it's not typically the Israeli government that does this. Mostly the Haredi. So how will you do this? And what will occur when you come up with the anti-raiding plan?

Does any of this stop Hamas from attacking the country you're supposed to be protecting?

So what have you accomplished?

Jokes on them. I'm on kbin so I don't even see the downvotes.

You didn't answer the question.

In reference to a settler murdering someone, even though you didn't ask, my response is that they should be arrested and if guilty then they should be punished under Israeli law for murder. Doesn't always happen. But it is what I would do.

But actually answer the question. You're in power now. What do you do?

You said what you wouldn't do. But you didn't actually answer the question. What would you do?

I'm curious how you think Israel should respond after 1400 mostly civilians are killed and a couple hundred hostages taken by the government of the territory next to them.

This is naive. I think every response sees where you are coming from. And some make sound arguments about why all work isn't prostitution. I will take another approach. Be scientific about it. Test it.

If you already have a job, then you know what that feels like. So now, you need to know what it is like to let someone fuck you for money. So in order to do that, you would need to go out and do it. If you are a guy, you will find it is much easier to be a gay prostitute. Just a note. And remember, it is only for money and business is business.

They had complete control of Gaza and the whole Sinai Peninsula. Which quadrupled the size of land Israel controlled. But they gave control back to Egypt to make peace in 1978. Then in 2004-05 they completely withdrew from Gaza and dismantled and (sometimes forcefully) removed all settlements and settlers in an attempt at making peace.

Now in the first situation since for 45 years, the two groups have maintained peace. The other Arab nations were less peaceful with Israel, however. Islamic jihadists even assassinated Sadat. But there has been peace with Israel.

In the second, they used it an opportunity to essentially become a terrorist controlled territory. And increased the attacks. And reject any peace negotiations.

So what should Israel do? What solution might you suggest.