nefonous @ nefonous @lemmy.world

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2 yr. ago

Italians where also the ones that invented the republic, so what?

Fascism was and will always be a disgrace in Italian history, but maybe you should research Piazzale Loreto to see how much people ended up liking fascism in the end.

Of course there are extremist idiots in Italy like in any other country, but Italy official position on it was made very clear.

Even making a fascist group or association is literally a crime in Italian law.

This doesn't change that the current situation is very bad of course, but right wing populism and fascism are not nearly the same thing, even if one could lead to the other

To be exact, there is a difference between insult and defamation

I'm not too sure about the technicalities either, so I'm not sure if insulting is also a problem.

But declamation requires saying something false to ruin the other person's reputation, and it's actually a crime even against normal people

After WW2 italian socialist and communist parties where between the strongest ones in non USRR europe (if not the number one), but let's just spout random nonsense for no reason

While the extreme right wing never disappeared, they were as much as a niche as the extreme left.

The country stayed between the left and the center until well into the 90s when a moderate right became more prominent and started to be closer to a 50/50 split

The general right wing radicalization we're seeing now is way more recent and it's hardly a phenomenon exclusive to Italy.

I totally agree that the current Italian government is ridiculous and that this problem with extreme right wing populism is becoming very serious in most western countries, Italy included.

But comparing this to a culture ingrained love for fascism when fascism didn't last for even 1% of Italian history and culture is just asinine and ignorant.

This kind of attitude is ironically very similar to the racism you're trying to criticize

They explained the situation very well, and it's not exactly as you described it.

Thread is outside the fediverse now, so there is literally nothing to defederate.

And they already basically admitted that in case of threads federating, they would defederate.

It was one of the few instances (if not the only one) to put down exactly what practical problems federating would cause instead of simply taking an ethical stance or regurgitating the usual nonsense EEE argument.

But people wanted an immediate, strong and ethical stance (which is also understandable), so they didn't like the wait and they didn't care about an objective analysis of pro and cons

I don't know what people are smoking, maybe it's too much heat, but air conditioning is very common and normal here in Italy too.

I don't know what a cooling center is, but there is AC everywhere, and when there isn't it's a choice of the owner to avoid installing it.

Also it's not the first time we reach similar temperatures sadly. We get around 40°C basically every year. The south of Italy is clearly on a very high and uncommon peak, tho.

The situation is different in other countries like Germany, northern France or England. Until a few years ago they never needed AC at all so most homes don't have it and it's not even that easy and immediate to have it installed

I completely switched to lemmy for my random scrolling. But the main community for a game is still there so sometimes I keep lurking that subreddit only (exclusively from pc)

Depends on how the code was written, it can vary between "a few days of work" and "it's easier to write a new one"

As I said, the article itself contains no proof that results would have been any different in the long term for XMPP. It's just a baseless theory. We can read it again and again but the results will always be the same, I'm not sure why you're pointing back to it when I analyzed every point it tries to make already.

I am not saying EEE doesn't exist, I'm just saying that nothing in that article contributes to our discussion, and that the EEE scenario doesn't really even fit our situation.

WhatsApp and Instagram were direct competitors to Facebook and Facebook messenger respectively. While not as big as Facebook, Instagram was pretty popular and WhatsApp was already a standard of communication in multiple countries (they payed 19 billions for it) So yeah, definitely they thought it was better to buy than compete. But are we really thinking the fediverse is even comparable to Instagram or WhatsApp? They wouldn't buy it even if they could, it's literally less than crumbles to them, both in value and user base.

I love the fediverse and I'm excited about it but let's be serious, it's crazy to even think meta would see it as a competitor. Remember, 19 billions dollars. That's what meta thought it was better to pay to remove a competitor almost 10 years ago. Can you value the current fediverse even a 1% of that? Let's not kid ourselves, we're in no shape or form any kind of threat or competition to Meta.

And, also, we're a different kind of service altogether. They would do something about reddit first if they were interested in this kind of service.

What they care about is filling the Twitter void, and this was the quickest/cheapest/most convenient way to do it. It can cause problems for mastodon, probably for kbin, but lemmy's situation is different.

As I said before, there are legitimate causes of worry (moderations, ads, sheer size of their user base, pushing agendas etc) Let's talk about those, which are important and can lead us to develop new ideas and ways to keep the fediverse healthy.

This EEE scarecrow makes no sense in our situation. We're different services even if we can coincidentally communicate with to each other.

Also people keep saying to defederate when there is nothing to deferate from at the moment, threads is not federating anything. We don't even know which domain we are supposed to defederate. Whats the point of talking technicalities without understanding them?

The conversation about what to do in case that happens is useful and healthy, but the sheer amount of disinformation and misunderstanding about the concepts is frankly crazy.

We don't want to become like meta platforms that are full of disinformation, but most people keep spreading disinformation and mindless slogans here too instead of talking about the real issues.

That Zuck quote is the literal example of that. I have yet to see even one single person here saying that they trust Zuck. But people keep quoting it ad nauseam as if it has any meaning in our context. We are discussing about what are the risks and if they outweght the eventual benefits, nobody is saying that they trust the lizard.

I prefer someone saying "fuck meta, i don't want any connection to them out of ethics" compared to the 200000th person posting the XMPP article as an out of context Bible.

If you read all of my previous post, you know I'm pro defederation, there is no point in trying to convince me since we already agree.

I'm just strongly against disinformation, fake issues and red herrings

I see this article posted over and over again, but it doesn't help when many of the posters themselves don't understand it (I don't mean it's your case specifically, of course, just generalizing)

The article starts saying that Google won by EEE with a completely personal hypothesis that has absolutely no factual base (the protocol would be more used today if Google didn't use it, which is unprovable and overly optimistic)

Then proceeds talking about the office suite describing it as a similar EEE case (which was not since it was MS own thing since the beginning) and by completely ignoring the most glaring and important fact that lead to the current results (which is it being the default suite on any pc)

Then it finishes by saying that the fediverse shouldn't be popular and have many people, it should instead focus on the freedom of it (which can be agreeable)

The real message of all that article is just that yeah, the average user likes to use whatever they find served to them directly (in Gmail, on their pc, on their phone) and doesn't care at all where it come from or how it works. Convenience beats privacy for most people, out of ignorance.

There is absolutely no need for any EEE evil plan for someone who already controls the majority of users, that's just a shortcut to avoid developing something from scratch.

There are real issues with federating threads (moderation, ads, their number controlling the All/Hot pages etc).

It's not useful, in my opinion, to keep using EEE as a scarecrow without even understand that at the moment Meta has absolutely nothing to take advantage of since the number of people that use mastodon only without any meta product on their phone is so small to be nothing to them.

What meta can gain from mastodon is that they don't have to start coding from scratch, saving time and money and coming out now at the perfect moment of Twitter collapse. And maybe a bit of a positive image because they "work on open source".

That's the whole value they probably see on this atm, not way less than a million people that probably have other meta products on their phones anyway.

I think we should focus on the real problems, this EEE thing is basically becoming propaganda at this point and makes almost no sense in our specific case (lemmy vs threads)

I also agree with a defederating-first cautios approach, btw, for the reasons explained before. But we should talk, inform and discuss about the real problems

The problem is that this doesn't change the outcome.

To use your example, if we federate people will join the meta instance, if we don't federate people won't even know the lemmy.world instance exists, and even if they do they would still join the meta one if it's bigger.

I totally agree with the sentiment, but I yet have to understand how not federating can change the outcome

The only way smaller instances can thrive and make a strong federation is by making the average person start to care more about privacy.

But you can't do that if you can't reach them in the first place

Can somebody explain me exactly how defederating them would give us a different outcome?

I'm genuinely curious.

Meta couldn't give less fucks about 100k users on lemmy, they are targeting people that isn't and will never use nor understand what the fediverse is.

You keep them out, good. They don't care, they just want to fill their own bucket with stuff that is outside anyway

Twitter people going to threads is completely independent from anything in the fediverse. Those people won't even notice any difference if they are federated or not.

They are in for the brand and the fomo, not the content