lemmeee @ lemmeee @sh.itjust.works

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2

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185

Joined

1 yr. ago

I guess Android, SailfishOS and the mainline Linux kernel are not proprietary then. Oh wait, they are.

with the proprietary Steam client

You answered your own question.

That doesn’t mean you can’t control how it works. Most people don’t need sources of their Linux distros to use them as they want.

You can't easily make changes to a program without the source code or even check what it does. Most people are not programmers, so others study the code and make the necessary changes for them.

It would be cool to have the source, but you wouldn’t expect them to have an official maintained repo since they spend much more resources on actual hardware that needs this distro.

This is not an excuse. What they are doing is unethical. They put themselves in a position of power over their users. Not much different from Microsoft or Apple.

Yeah it seems to also be the only thing that is proprietary in SteamOS too.

I don't know if that's true. But the Linux kernel is proprietary as well (just like the one in Arch) - it contains binary blobs without the source code.

Are you clueless or what? There are too many ways to do what you want with SteamOS. You can use offline mode, desktop mode, play pirated games in any mode, install any controller software you like.

I was explaining to you how DRM works and why it's wrong, since apparently you have no idea. I don't know why you are listing features that any popular desktop operating system has (even Windows). SteamOS is still proprietary, which makes it unethical.

Finally, install another Linux distro on it, or Windows. But people buy Deck because of SteamOS mostly since it creates the intended (and expected) experience.

If you buy a Windows laptop, you can install any operating system on it too. That doesn't make Windows ethical.

They are DRM-free. I can send you a copy of those games and you can run them on your computer. Without you having to log in anywhere or install an additional proprietary application. Without anyone verifying anything. Isn't that amazing?

Then you don't care about freedom and having control over your computer. That's a shame. I think you should.

You have to recognize that having an open source almost everything except a single program (steam) is better than what windows is doing by miles, right?

But is that actually true? There is no source code for SteamOS 3. How do you know how many packages are proprietary? Even one nonfree package is unethical. People deserve to have control over their computers, I don't care if it's currently a little better than Windows.

You can’t win everything, steam is never going to stop being proprietary

This is irrelevant. We should still try to make the world better and fight the injustice. If gamers realized this 10 years ago, maybe we would have this problem solved by now.

The issue is not as black and white as you’re making it seem.

You can't have freedom when someone is actively trying to take it away from you. We have to get rid of proprietary software. If we accept the abuse from those companies, nothing will change. We've been fighting this battle for 40 years now. Those companies want to give you an illusion of freedom, so that they can pretend that they are good. They are using the work of Free Software volunteers to build a prison for you.

Plus if steam wins, getting people to switch to fully open source operating systems will be a lot easier.

No, there is no Free Software alternative to Steam and there is no reason to believe that Valve will release its source code.

You are making an assumption that Valve won't make their system even more proprietary. But why wouldn't they if their fans are ok with this? They're already abusing their power with Steam. Giving them more power will only make the abuse worse.

Can you explain what parts of SteamOS are not controllable in a way that makes it more restricted than Arch, which it is based on?

Valve won't release the source code and I don't use it, so it's hard for me to tell which packages are proprietary and which are not. Steam client for sure is proprietary and it comes with the OS. Arch by default is Free Software (other than proprietary blobs in the kernel) and you can audit what each program does and modify it. With SteamOS you can't do that, because Valve keeps secrets from you on your own device.

[If the account owns the game - allow user to download and run the game] is a DRM sure… But it’s kind of fair, no?

To play any game you have to install and run the proprietary Steam client and be logged in to an account. Even to play singleplayer games. Even if you bought a physical disc. There are stores that don't do this: gog.com and itch.io. They provide an optional client for convenience, but you can just download a game's installer from the website and install it on any PC any time you want. In case of Itch the client is Free Software so anyone can see what it does and modify it.

And that makes it ethical? DRM-free stores exist: gog.com and itch.io for example.

Steam OS is easy, you can install literally any other distro.

You can say the same about Windows. You can replace it with another OS, but that doesn't make it ethical.

With regards to steam itself sadly we don’t live in a fairytale land where everything can be FOSS, there aren’t enough people motivated to work for free.

If everyone had this attitude, there would be no Free Software at all. It took 40 years of hard work to get to where we are right now. I don't understand why you think that anyone has to work for free. Free Software is about freedom, not price. Itch.io is a store that has a Free Software client (and it's optional - you don't even have to use it). Valve could do the same, but they don't want to.

Steam drm is great it makes publisher executives happy, while being extremely easy to crack.

Yes, it's great that publishers can abuse us and that you need a proprietary app on your system and be logged in to an account to play singleplayer games. Thanks Valve.

You don't have to use SteamOS and you don't have to use Windows, but that doesn't change the fact that they are unethical operating systems designed to take away user's freedom. You can't easily know what it does on your device or change it. It keeps secrets from you. Steam also restricts you with DRM. So unless you are fine with Valve becoming another Microsoft, we need to criticize them for doing this.

You are right, laws can be pretty crazy sometimes. Especially the copyright law. Thanks for explaining.

That SteamOS is unethical, similar to Windows.

Anything you write should be proprietary by default. So I don't think you have to add this license to your comments just to achieve your goal. But it makes sense if you also want to give some extra rights to people.

If AI reads your code, but the output is something entirely different, why would that be illegal? Isn't that the same as a human reading something? I'm curious what the courts will decide, though.

I don't want to help Microsoft, but some of the arguments made in that article are strange. If AI means the end of software licenses, that means the end of copyright, which is a good thing. When AI gets better, we might be able to feed it leaked or decompiled source code and get something that we can legally use. That's not the current situation, though. At the moment Microsoft uses libre, copylefted software to improve their proprietary program and that's bad. But I don't think we can do anything about it other than telling people to not use it.

Steam (and other parts of SteamOS) is non free software, it can do anything on your system and there is no easy way for you to change that or even know what it does. Valve developers put themselves in a position of power over you. They keep secrets from you on your own device. This in itself is unethical, but they also abuse their users with DRM. How can you say that you have control in this case?

Anti Commercial AI thingy

Just out of curiosity, do you think that licensing your posts under CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 makes it illegal to use them to train an AI? If so, why do you think that? I post GPL licensed code online, so I'm interested in this topic.

That does not make SteamOS or Windows an ethical OS.

Steam Deck is a computer, so its users deserve to have full control over it just like their PC or smartphone.

You are correct about Steam client though. Even if they keep the internals closed, the GUI part alone would be worth forking. I wish a chrome-less version would exist.

If people can't easily modify it, then its developers have power over users. You have to trust that they will not abuse that power, but they already do - with DRM for example.

Their system (and the Steam client) is proprietary, which means you can't easily see what the software does or change it. If you can't control the software then you don't control the device. People deserve to have the 4 essential freedoms. This is why Windows is bad and it's the same with SteamOS.

Looks like the Church of Emacs has competition. I also want a Pastafarian version.

Making a proprietary operating system is not the right decision. It's unethical to take away people's ability to control their own devices.

Thanks for the answer. So it's not really about the age gap itself? You just think that the age of consent should be 16 or higher? Or is it both?

14 is too young in most cases. 16… I could probably start debating in that.

Is it possible that you are thinking that, because age of consent is very high in your country? I imagine that people who live for example in Germany, where age of consent is 14, might not think the same. In most of Europe it's 14-16. In some countries teenagers can even get an abortion.