The state of US political discourse
First of all, who are you to tell me what I believe? If I believe that living in a commune-style societal arrangement would be better than market or trade-style arrangement, who are you to tell me that I actually don't believe that? Perhaps I'm not a communist like yourself -- I'm guessing you want something that preserves some level of social stratification -- but to me that is equally unacceptable. If we believe that all people are equal, why are we always trying to establish these top-down decision making structures, in which one person has arbitrary power over another?
Second of all, there are actually numerous examples in the archaeological and anthropological records of communities that lived in just that for hundreds of years -- hierarchy-less societies that had little notion of private property. Two books on the subject are Debt: The First 5000 years by David Graeber and The Dawn of Everything, by Graeber and David Wengrow, both of which are backed by academic rigor. This isn't to say anarchist societies are impermeable to outside forces -- obviously those anarchistic societies no longer exist, so you could say that they "failed." But I'm sure you, yourself, would be a bit offended if I told you state communism has never been successful historically, when in fact one of the main reasons it hasn't is because the West has been at war with state communism as an ideology for the past century and a half. Still, these anthropological examples at the very least expand our understanding of what is politically possible, and you saying "it has never worked, so it will never work," is just as silly as you saying "capitalism won, and therefore it must be the correct form of societal and economic arrangement."
Third of all, and I repeat myself, who are you to say that I'm content with how things are, I'm not doing anything practical to address problems, and that I'm giving a vote for genocide? The only way to not vote for a genociding politician in the upcoming election is to not vote at all, which is doing less than I'm already doing, and likely only going to help the party even further right. Not to mention, you don't fucking know me, or know what levels of organization I have or haven't been a part of. And furthermore, why would I be propelled to further organize, when people like you are so unpleasant to discuss politics with? Why would I want to collaborate with you when you talk like this?
We're on the same side, but -- Jesus -- you're making me wish we weren't. Your entire demeanor in this thread is what prevents liberals from realizing what you, yourself, are trying to convince them -- that the American Democratic party are part of the problem.
For the sake of leftists, please do better.
edit: Oh and you're a mod of this page? For the love of god dude please improve your rhetorical skills. I understand your frustration, but American liberals are entrenched in a two party system that forces them to choose between two evils. Alienating them from the getgo is not a good strategy
What the fuck are you on about? What do you want me to do? Dissolve the state myself?
I'm fucking communist already, just not your hierarchical brand. But I'm still gonna vote, because the US can still swing further to the right.
How do you expect to get people on your side if you say shit like
You have absolutely no shame. There is no educating people like you.
Jesus.
Listen dude. Im in pretty much full agreement with both of your comments in this thread. But if you're trying to get people converted, especially moderate liberals, don't start off combatively telling them they're supporting a genocide or that they're wasting their time voting. Its just gonna entrench them even more because it's so outside their realm of political understanding.
I mean, I'm anarchosyndicalist. I'm aware of how fucked up the voting system is and how little power I have as an individual, and it pisses me off to be scolded at like that. Ive read People's History, and the manifesto, and Kropotkin (not to mention, a fair amount of chomsky and a lot of David Graeber). Imagine how moderate liberals feel when you slam them with a wall of text? They are not fucking initiated yet.
Like I said to the OP, you gotta meet people where they are. You're right that the left is disorganized, and that most Democrats aren't really leftist but socially progressive capitalists, but if you're gonna convert them you need to ease them into it, not immediately shock them with walls of text and accusations of supporting a genocide. Because they'll just recoil into their somewhat cozy capitalist shell.
I'm definitely not voting RFK Jr's antivax ass. I mean he's a Kennedy. Still an elite in power.
Anyways, 3rd party candidates historically never have a chance. Ultimately if it were really my choice, the only parties we'd have are idk street parties. Because there'd be no government at all, or temporary governments when the need arises, or something more creative than the dumbass shit we have now.
Dude, if this was your way to try to educate and get people to organize, you've gotta do way better. I'm sorry. You can't essentially accuse folks of supporting genocide and then turn around and try to convert them to Communism lol
You gotta meet them where they are and introduce it softly to them. They're not going to understand your anger toward the state for all it's injustices, because they haven't seen them yet. You're fuckin scaring em off
Besides, I'm not gonna join a political party that is ultimately going to be just another top down hierarchical structure. I'd prefer the decision making in my commune to be bottom-up.
Maybe they're not from the US and don't realize that we actually don't have much of a choice? Or maybe they're pro-Trump. Idk.
No offense dude, but I think you are pretty ignorant about American leftists. I mean, you're completely right that we're having to dismiss an atrocity and vote for a genocidist and that the system is fundamentally broken. But that's common knowledge in the US lol, even across the aisle. Politicians are bought and sold, ask any semi-informed citizen in the US, right or left. It's just that most people are too busy working to fucking LIVE to think there is anything we can about it, or they've been brainwashed to think that's how it should be (top down something or other...)
Shit is fucked here. Nobody's trying to hide it, like I didn't just "say the quiet part out loud." Obviously America is fucked, obviously the Democratic party is fucked. But I'm still gonna vote for Harris because America can still get worse and the Republican party isn't just fucked, its absolutely fuckaroo'd.
Tell me what you want me to do. Should I not vote? Who is defending Kamala or the Democratic party here? Just because I'm relatively happy that Kamala gives the US a better chance at avoiding another Trump presidency, that doesn't mean I'm happy with Kamala being the nominee. Or happy with her being genocidist. How does that make me an apologist for genocide when I have a binary choice in front of me between two people who are going to continue sending weapons to an apartheid state committing genocide? I mean fuck, the US is the worlds largest terror organization -- are you going to accuse me of supporting them because they take money out of my paycheck? There isn't really anything I can do about it besides try to vote in the direction that leans away from that.
Again, what do you want me to do? Obviously if I could choose someone who would impart a weapons embargo and trade sanctions against Israel, I would. But the choices I have in front of me are a person who, while publicly calling for a ceasefire, sends weapons to an apartheid state that is currently genociding the Palestinian people, and another who will not only certainly still send weapons to that state, but also strengthen ties with it, and urge them to "finish the job." Do you want me to stay home, and give the latter option a better chance of winning?
edit: Like idk who's out here praising Kamala Harris and the rest of the Democratic party for their soft-as-shit stance on Israel, but I still gonna vote for her, because Trump and Republicans wouldn't only be worse for the Palestinian people, they'd be worse for the US
We have a choice between one person publicly calling for a ceasefire and another who says Israel needs to finish the job.
I'm not sure what you want us to do here.
All politicians seek to gain power and uphold the unjust, undemocratic, hierarchical power structures that constrain individual freedom -- power structures that are ultimately backed by the monopolization of violence through the police.
It's just that one party also wants to use those structures to surveil women's bodies, ban books, delegitimize science, push religion, and extract capital from natural resources and workers without restriction.
That's insane.
Like, no 401k or Roth IRA? Dang. I'm fuckin hard.
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Jump
If you aren't comfortable doing that then you aren't comfortable "working on" your car.
You've written a whole lotta junk to essentially end on, "if you can't jack up your car and remove the wheel, you shouldn't be changing your headlight in the first place."
Which is quite a dumb take.
Always a relevant xkcd Terry Pratchett quote
I mean, you're totally right until the last paragraph. I don't think Biden locking them up by executive order would shut them up. I think it's more likely that would spark the civil war they're so desperate to have. They're like Kyle Rittenhouse, just waiting for an excuse to shoot a leftist.
How do you mean? Like, you don't actually think campaign aids said these things?
Not sure what flogging a narrative really means
Sorry, you're right. The original person you responded to was pushing back against someone saying
Ask yourself why the question on every MSM article is about bidens age instead of trumps pedophilia, then you'll see why we like to blame the media
He's definitely a rapist, no doubt about that. Appreciate you linking the case, too. But just because his being on Epsteins flight logs isn't blowing up in the same way Biden getting pressured out of his campaign is blowing up, doesn't mean the media is trying to get Trump elected. They're advancing their own interests, for sure, and those interests are inherently capitalistic, but to say or infer this push to replace Biden is originating as a right wing media campaign to get Trump elected is just nonsense to me.
Dude, just because someone thinks another Democrat has a better chance at beating Trump doesn't mean they are a "both sider." Nor does it automatically make them an idiot. That is just reductive and dismissive on your part.
No one is saying Biden is just as bad as Trump, or Democrats are just as bad as Republicans. We're saying Biden doesn't have a chance at beating Trump and we need a stronger candidate.
They've got a candidate that can literally be criminally charged and it won't matter. We've got a candidate who voter will stay home for because he's old. That's a huge problem.
Exactly. You joke, but you can't bring someone to your side by immediately making an enemy of them.edit: Not to mention in Western media, socialism is taboo, communism is literally the devil (Trump recently said at one of his rallies he would deport all the communists, lol) and anarchism is synonymous with chaos.
In order to win these people over, I'm not gonna go up to each one and say "oh hey, by the way, you are a citizen of the worlds largest terrorist organization. the flag you salute is synonymous with an authoritarian empire that even today works to prevent any non-capitalistic democratic movement from occurring. It is a feudal state that extracts tribute from the rest of the world in the form of mass imports and few exports, incurring meaningless debt because at the end of the day it can print more money, lend it to the banks, and not worry about repercussions, because the rest of the world's currency is backed by theirs instead of gold, and if any country step out of line, they can employ violence from any one of the 700+ military bases they control worldwide. Your country controls what money is, inherently, and monopolizes violence, and therefore holds the rest of the world in a headlock, and you are part of the problem" Even though all of that is true.
No, I'm probably gonna say "isn't it kinda wild Obama bailed out the banks in 2008? Like, bankers actually offer nothing of value to society," or "its so terrible that the US has been supporting Israel for so long, as they have continually decimated and oppressed the Palestinian people," and have an interesting (albeit, often terribly sad) discussion from there.